On making of a multidisciplinary polyamorous designer - Chris Wilson

In this heartfelt conversation, Glasgow-based designer Chris Wilson shares his journey as the one-person creative studio. 

He discusses his decision to embrace his solo status rather than pretending to be a larger agency, his traumatic experience being attacked with a knife as a university student, and how work became a crutch that ultimately led to burnout and hospitalisation. 

Chris opens up about discovering therapy later in life, managing client expectations by setting boundaries, and his ongoing evolution as a designer navigating new technologies and personal growth. His story reveals the challenges and rewards of running a small design business while prioritizing well-being.

Key Takeaways

• Being authentic about running a solo studio created more trust with clients than pretending to be larger.
• Work can become a dangerous crutch that helps avoid dealing with emotional trauma.
• Setting clear boundaries with clients (four-day workweek, email-only communication) helped establish healthier work patterns.
• Traumatic events can significantly impact creative confidence and career choices.
• It's important to recognize burnout warnings before health deteriorates seriously.
• Therapy can be transformative even years after experiencing trauma.
• Embracing technological change (like AI) is essential for staying relevant in the creative industry.
• Finding a balance between personal development, client work, and emotional well-being is an ongoing journey.
• Small studios can build meaningful client relationships by guiding them through the entire creative process.
• Self-acceptance is crucial for both personal health and authentic creative work.

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Transcript

Chris: [00:00:00] when I started at college and certainly the start part of uni, I was doing a lot of stuff. I didn't have a computer at home. Like I would use the studio, computers up at the university and everything we were doing was hand drawn sketches.

It was like lecture set.I wasn't using computers to do these presentations. then all of a sudden the computer comes along. There's all these software packages you need to learn. So it was just a bit developing and leaning into that. And I think AI's pretty much the same thing. Like it's something that's coming in whether we like it or not 

 Welcome to Mindful Creative Podcast, a show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. My name is r Malini and creativity changed my life, but it also nearly killed me in this season. Inspired by my book of the same title, I'm talking to some of the most celebrated [00:01:00] figures in a creative industry.

In our candid conversations, my guests share their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles. How they'll learn to grow as creatives. A creative career in the 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career.

So Thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life.

You ready?  

Radim: My guest today runs an award-winning one-man creative studio in Glasgow, Scotland. He's a multidisciplinary designer with nearly two decades of experience partnering with local and international businesses, from startups to establish brands offering end-to-end full service approach, including packaging, branding, visualization, and everything in between.

In our deeply [00:02:00] personal conversation, we talk about the traumatic experience of being a victim of a violent crime, and how creative work became a crutch that ultimately led to burnout and hospitalization. He opens up about discovering therapy later in life, managing client expectations by setting boundaries and his ongoing evolution as a designer, navigating new technologies and personal growth.

It's my pleasure to introduce Chris Wilson from Stick Man Studio.  

Hey Chris, how are you doing? 

Chris: Hi. I'm doing fine, thanks.

for those who might not have heard of Stickman or Chris Wilson, how would you introduce yourself?  

so yeah, I'm Chris Wilson. I run a one man creative studio based in Glasgow, Scotland. the business is called Stick Man.I would say I'm probably a generalist, but I don't really like the word. I jokingly describe myself as a, polyamorous designer, only 'cause I'm passionate about kinda all things creative.

I'm not really tied to a single discipline. Instead, I like to just flirt with [00:03:00] a, number of different creative approaches. So,if I had to tie it down, I'd say branding, packaging and visualization seem to be the kinda main services I offer, but I offer a ton of services in between that as well.

There's not really much that I don't do. 

Radim: how did you end up being a one man entity? a calling yourself, generalist or polyamorous designer because. I am sensing sort of a tinge of hesitation. I call myself this, I don't wanna call myself that. Mm-hmm. But after all, it's our work that defines us or is it not?

Yeah. 

Chris: Yeah. definitely I think the portfolio suggests that, like if you look through my current follow as a mixture of different services and project types, but I think I'm nine years into it now, doing it for myself and there's been that kind of journey of like, how do I describe myself?

Whether do I want it to be? so there's that initial, I think what most people do is I call the agency stick man, but I would say we, instead of I or me and I wouldn't really focus around, try to describe it as myself. I would try and make it seem as if it was bigger [00:04:00] than it is, but it started to feel a bit disingenuous.  

and it was difficult as well for Get across a tone of voice when I felt like I was speaking as if it was more than just me. So I think I kinda leaned on it recently of being like, you know what? It is only me. I do all these services. That's what it is. and then when you go on and you look at a lot of the agency sites or other micro agencies or one man bands like me, it's all the same stuff that they talk about.

So I thought, what's a way of describing myself that's a wee bit different from the kinda usual way of doing it? And that's how the kinda polyamorous part of it, it was more of a kinda jokey way of describing multidisciplinary design rather than sounding It sounds quite clinical as a term, so I figured that it is a nicer way of describing it.  

Obviously the poly's bit like polymath, so doing more than one thing and then the amorous part of it being passionate. So that was really how it came about. just trying to find that we, thing that was different for me to describe myself. and then obviously the name Stickman came about 'cause I'm tall and skinny and it's the first thing that people draw like creatively.

whether you're a [00:05:00] kid or right through adulthood, everyone knows what a stick man is. So,I thought that was a nice way of describing who I was. 

Radim: you said it felt disingenuous to call yourself. We, but you do work with other people, right? 

Chris: I do, I'd say the majority of the time when I'm working on projects, it is me that carries out all the work and it's me that what's direct with the client.  

When I come up against projects where it might require something that I'm not too sure of, then I'll reach out to other people that can, I specialize in that, but it's no, often that happens, like I'd say I would turn my hand to it if they asked. Look, could you, so for example, I'm learning blender, the 3D package just now.

So like if somebody said to me, can you do 3D modeling? So I would take that job on, but I'm, I can't animate it. So I work with a guy, Dan, who does the kinda animation side. So I do bring people in now and again. But what had happened initially, I had a shadow space. I was renting from a friend Martin, who was a photographer and I had set it up to say we on the website, and it was like, as if it was more than [00:06:00] one person.

And, a client came along to the studio and was like, oh, I'd love to meet the team. And it was like that realization of, I'm the team that only is me. So it felt as if I'd already lost their trust in the sense that they'd built up this picture because I was saying we, and I was talking about it in third person, that it was bigger than it was.

and it was actually quite difficult for me as well when I was trying to write things or, talk from the brand's point of view. I kept tripping myself up. 'cause I was like, we and I, and it just felt really messy. Whereas I thought leaning into just saying, well look, it is only me.And it just felt more honest and actually more authentic and easier for me to actually talk about myself rather than feeling like I'm trying to make it sound bigger than it was.  

Radim: Yeah. I think that's the sort of, the constant dissonance is like eternal dissonance of a designer because, sometimes people search for freelance designer. But you're not necessarily freelance designer. Now you run a, creative output studio or output, whatever you call it, business.  

But it's almost like how do we [00:07:00] fit the perception of people or expectations of people like they're looking for. Because from experience, people were looking for a freelance designer. that was literally their keywords. And then they start and they come to you and they're like, so how big is your team?

It's like,I'm pretty sure you search for a freelance designer, right? And they're like, yeah. So what makes you think I've got a team? Andyeah. I'm hat tough to you for saying now it feel as disingenuous because a lot of people will happily pretend they have 10 people. They'll happily pretend they're bigger than they, and then you can make it happen.

But I think with the rise. Of understanding of micro agencies. I think it's a bit easier to say, this is me and I'm not just a logo designer, I'm not just a banner designer cause I think for some, lots of people, like from experience again, they're looking for the equivalent of a plumber.

like they've got a leak, they want that person to come and fix it. And they go do you also do electrics and any plant, any, building work, can you fix my roof? I think we are changing, [00:08:00] evolving as creative, but way we are understood by the world outside sometimes hasn't caught up.

And of course we don't have an idea of what are some other people do, 'cause the job titles that some people have didn't exist 10 years ago, not even five years ago. So it's like, how did we get the right perception? So yeah. Hats off to you because yeah, there's always people that you can use.

There's always things you can do and. Sometimes people prefer to work with a person knowing that it's just that person. But it might be like, oh, why am I paying you all of this money? Because it's only you, You're like, okay, Do I need to justify my time? Do I need to justify my knowledge?

No.   

Chris: I think where, I've seen a big shift certainly over the last nine years of, doing it full-time where, initially I had that apprehension of it is only me and I'm offering a list of all these different services. And like you said, there are sometimes people are used to being, well, if I need a specialist, if it's web, I'll go to a web designer.

If I need a logo, go to a logo designer. But I think there's something to be said where a lot of people, maybe if they're starting out or [00:09:00] they've got a business, they're a startup, they'd much rather work with somebody through the entire journey. So if I came in at a point where they've got an idea or they've got a product.  

But they don't necessarily know how to name that product, how to brand it up, how it has to exist within that digital space, or what a campaign could look like, or the visuals or the photography. Whereas if I can sit with them and say, look, I can do all that for you, it's like it's much more powerful to have A person working on it from the start to the end rather than some okay, we've got to this stage, let's bring in this and then re-explain what the brand is and what the tone of voice should be and stuff. Because I went through that process with them at the beginning and building that foundation so no one kinda knows the brand better than myself and the client at that point.

So it makes sense to then say, what are these next services that you're looking for? How can I be involved in that? and for a lot of startups that they do want almost to use me as, an external team. They maybe don't have the resource to have somebody full time as a member of staff, but they can work with me as if I was their team.  

So I think [00:10:00] that's where it kinda works. And I've seen a massive change in, the acceptance of that also with the larger businesses. So it used to be. we in the hope that the perception would seem bigger. So the big names and the big clients would then say, oh, it's a we, so we'll go with them because they'll be more reliable.  

but I've seen a change where they're now accepting of the smaller one man, two man agencies. It's, definitely changing. so yeah, I've seen a difference in, the perception of that. And also I think a reason why I'm leaning into the I aspect of it more now is that I, have no intention of growing stickman.

Like I don't want to have staff. that was never my intention. Like I always wanted it to be me having that business. I think I've, thought about it and can I, I have dips in and out, especially now as I'm getting older. Got a bit of a designer saw the industry. So for me, knowing I can't maybe do all long hours the way that I used to, the fact that technology's changing so quickly, try to keep up to date with that.  

yeah, it's, I the eye things have, I'm leaning into that more 

Radim: I wanna talk about time. [00:11:00] I wanna talk about your no grow situation, 

 how does it work in your situation where you do most of your work and you're planning to keep it in the same, Do you ever feel like there is a pressure as a result of it, that you've got a bit too much to do?   

Chris: Oh, definitely.

and I've had myself in situations where it's put me in the hospital, just through that, just through overwork. So it was not last October, but the October before, I had taken on far too much work. So I had three projects all running at the same time. I had blinkers on. So like for me it was just head down, get the work done.

was more important than most things. And what that does is like my health was suffering. So I wasn't, eating meals at the right times. I was going home and reheating food. So I was working late nights, not getting to see my kid, or my wife. Like it was affecting my relationships.  

And, it came to my head one day where I was working away in the studio and I could start to feel like pain in my chest. And, I figured, look, I've not been eaten correctly. My, it's just because I've not [00:12:00] been eating, I'm feeling sickly or whatever. So I never put it down to anything. But, and eh, I a stew who's one of the guys that takes a desk in my.

He said, look, I think if you're feeling that way, just maybe call it a day. And, why don't you step away from the screen for a bit? So he says, look, let's, in truth, Scottish fashion, let's go for a pint. So we went for a pint and, like medicinal purposes. So we went for a pint, at a bar just on the road.

And then I was halfway through a pint. I said, look, I, really, there's something not right. I don't feel, So I started walking to the station, and then I just felt like I couldn't breathe. It was like a really bad stitch, like as if this pain every time I was inhaling. So I felt my wife, she came and got me.

We went to the hospital. they went in and took blood pressure, said to me, look, we don't go need do a chest x-ray. So they came back so I was in right through the night and into the morning and they said, look, the results for the x-ray have shown those are dark in one of your lungs.  

So basically what I had done was I'd ended up, had really bad chest infection and I had just tried to power through it. I just, instead of recovering, let myself sit and get better or medicate, I just kept working and working and working to the point where this [00:13:00] pain was just unbearable. So they gave me medication, sent me home and said, look, you need to rest.

you are burnt up. I lost two stone in weight. for a skinny guy like me, that's, obviously holding up the stickman name, but, I think I just, was so consumed by the work and people are telling me, people were saying, look, you're working too much.

These are long hours. Like you are working weekends. but when you're in it, I couldn't see it. Like it was just, I was working through it. so I, slept for two days, like basically went to sleep, and that was me two full days. I took the medication, started getting back to normal, and then it was almost like a wake up call this is too much.

there is a line I think before it was just like, I'll take it on, I manage. And it was like, no, this is my body's way of saying enough and off. 

Radim: it's a crazy story, but I love the fact that you said, let's go for a pint Medicine and purposes. yeah, I can see the, I, I can see the logic in it.

shall I say? But this is the thing, It's so easy to,taking on too much work and being in that cycle, you just don't see, do you, get snow blind. You go oh, I need to do this. 'cause I would like to [00:14:00] think that when you took on all of that work, you didn't have your enough defined, you didn't know where to stop how to do it.

Because in mindful creative it was the first time when I was writing a book, I realized what my enough is. I came to actual realization what it is. Because you only find out where your enough should be when you hit the rock bottom. Like when you've gone past the enough and you just burn through all the stop signs, all the red lights, and you're like, oh, there is just a cliff.

And that is the end. like literally you find that. So if I could ask, what have you learned from, this experience?   

Chris: I would love to say, oh, I've turned it all around and I know the answer. I certainly don't. what I immediately done though, once I'd finished up those, obviously I'd finished those projects up, took the time, recovered in the January, I sent out an email to all my clients and everyone of my client listening just said, look, I'm dropping to a full day week.

I'm only available between these hours. And can you please do all correspondence through email, [00:15:00] so no more text and WhatsApp? And it just felt like they had 24 hour access to me, which wasn't helping in terms of me shutting off. so I put that in place. and then I think it was a matter of looking at what you were saying there about that you're enough, it was like, what is that version for me?

So it was like, is it a financial thing? once I get to a certain point of the year, have I made enough that covers my bills and I'm financially stable? and I'm happy to stop at that. And then it was like right there. I think it was mainly looking at the project management side and thinking, I, was looking at it probably foolishly for the perspective of, okay, I've got five days, there's eight hours in a day. I. That's how much capacity I've got. But in reality it doesn't work like that. half your day's taken up with emails and admin. And so I think it was trying to find a better balance for that, which, throughout last year, so I actually took on a lot less projects last year, probably about half the amount, but there were longer term projects, which meant I was able to plan them.  

So it was like, rather than it. So one of the projects was almost like a 10 month [00:16:00] project, where I had gaps in between where we were finishing one part, there was a gap, I was working on something else and then diving back in rather than trying to take on I think at one point there was like five projects running at the same time in that initial year, which is just for one person, it's too much.

And my biggest fear is always that the work will begin to suffer because when you can't put enough attention onto one thing at any one time, you start to see the cracks in each of them. And the only thing you can do is work longer on them. And then by doing that, you're just back to just running on the treadmill of like sometimes 14, 15 hour days.

And then working weekends, which is just, humans are about for it. 

Radim: I'm gonna make you feel a bit better about yourself because you talk about five projects at once. When I got to find out my enough, I had 19 projects at the same time. 19, there were not obviously long-term projects. There were smaller projects, and this is, a long time ago, but it's so easy to fall into this, especially when you don't [00:17:00] know things that make you say yes.

you think, you say yes to things because you're gonna learn from them. You're gonna earn from them. you say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Because deep under, down under, or deep under, which was the right way to say it? I was longing for acceptance. there was like, oh, people want me, people want me.

This is good. you might have your own, like a person could have their own reasons why they say yes to things, because it pushes them away from their, Suffering or their destructions, you keeping that wolf behind the door because you're keeping yourself busy in your sort of padded world.  

And when you actually start thinking I never really knew what my enough was, you never really knew is the right turnover, because I hate to repeat it, but. And not many people have the projection sheet going, oh, I need to earn this much. you kind of like, you have a sort of foggy idea, like, okay, maybe it's let's say 150 k, a year.

Let's, do that and we'll be okay. Obviously if you got staff and, we got bigger [00:18:00] outlays and overheads, might have a bit more of an idea what you need to do. But I still, I've spoken to a studio owner quite a while ago and he was like, yeah, I only just realized we need to make 140 KA month just to break even.

And you're like, I like the sentence when you say, I've only just realized it's like business and creativity. Don't always mix in the right way. there's a reason why there's CFOs who are, not creative people, but where I'm heading with this,I like what you've changed. like you said, I'm only available four days a week. 'cause you don't want people to have 24 access to yourself. but did you ever feel like, oh shit, these people might, step away and find somebody else because I'm cutting off the thing that's making me ill, that obviously does their benefit because obviously they get access to you and they're slightly more unregulated?  

Or did you feel like, okay, this is how I do business. Let's know if they don't accept it, they have to walk. 

Chris: Yeah, there was definitely a part of me thinking, I can't continue like that, so [00:19:00] have to change it for myself and for the family. So it was like, I have to do it. surprisingly all of them were really accepting of it because I think they're probably in the same boat as well.

Like they've got jobs, they've got businesses, they've got families. I think they were really understanding of look, we get it. no problem. it didn't seem like a bad thing. I think for me the decision had to be made, for my own health and for my owns sanity. But surprisingly, they were fine with it.

And I see, to be honest, I don't think I. Any of the clients really care when you get it done or what. if they've got a deadline they need it for then, then that's different. But see whether you've done it, I dunno, on a Sunday or an afternoon or you do it on a Monday. I don't think they really care all the access point.

A lot of them are willing to be like, drop me a mail and say, are you around a Wednesday for a quick call or whatever. So like it didn't really affect the day to day. I think it was more just, it was a good thing for me to establish it and be like, do you know what I needed that wake up call to realize that the job that we do.

I think were talking there a wee bit about the acceptance thing. I. I still suffer from it. Like I'm predominantly [00:20:00] self-taught in all the stuff that I do. I studied industrial design at university or what it was called, end product design. But it's been, that phrase has been stolen by the digital community, but it was industrial design.

So like all of the stuff that I know now, like the branding aspect of it, the visualization stuff I've taught myself, all of that. So there was always that worry of I need acceptance. I need clients to be like, oh, that's great work. Or my peers to be like, that's great work. And I was putting so much emphasis on that, to the point where, again, that was another reason why I felt the need to do it.  

It was almost like I need to prove myself to the industry, prove myself to these clients, especially when. I'd worked as design director at one of the agencies, and when you are in there and you're under their umbrella, and then you come out and you're on your own, you feel that you're back at square one.

Kinda even though at that point I'd been in the industry 10 years, it took me 10 years before I stepped outta my own. So there is that initial oh. Shit, it's like,man above the door now. Like I can't talk about these big brands that I've worked [00:21:00] with because they weren't my client. So a big part of that was like, I need to prove that I can do this, prove that it's going to work.

So there was a huge pressure on it and like most people, you could throw a lot of personal traumas and things that happening in your life. Like my dad has suddenly passed away. he died of a heart attack unexpectedly. and I, threw myself into work rather than probably dealing with that emotionally.  

so tons of things that happen where work becomes that crutch almost. It's that you can escape to there, you feel good when you're doing the projects and things like that. And, I think I've done that quite a lot. talking about traumatic stuff and I dunno if you need to put like a, small disclaimer to your listeners.

gonna talk about something that happened when I was at university, I just finished pitch. basically we would pitch our ideas to the lectures and go through all of that, and we were in late, it was about half seven at night finishing up the pitches, and I left with two of my other, students.

We were walking down. So Glasgow, Caledonian University need to walk through like a bus station to get down onto the main Buchanan Street, which is the kind of main, road that runs down, the middle of the town. And [00:22:00] Ned guy, like I, I think this guy was like a Chave or a Ned was walking past us and shouting things.

And we never thought anything of it. It walked past us. So we started walking down Buchanan Street. Like I say, it's half seven at night, so the streets rammed by people, shop and things like that. And then next thing I know, I get hit in the back of the head with, with a brick. And, I fell forward and I, I'd just seen white, I completely was just seen white that was.

the kind of first reaction. And then I fell forward and I had a duffle jacket on with the hood in my messenger bag, like across me. And then next thing I know, my hood's getting pulled down and I'm getting punched in the face. but I never realized at that point the guy had a knife. So he cut me down through my face here, down my beard, kinda covers it.

Now I've got scar in here above my eye, and I've got scars on my hands through where I was grabbing the knife. So I managed to wrestle free. the two guys that were with me, one of 'em pulled the guy off me and, or me away and there was like a Sainsbury's shop in the corner.  

So I ran in just as you can imagine, dripping my blood. and I was like, I've been attacked. So they rushed me through the security and through the back they had this large mirror on the [00:23:00] wall. And that is at the point when I'd seen that my face was open and like I was caught up quite badly.  

So I'm in shock at this point. they're trying to hold different bits on it, my face and my hands and stuff to stop the bleeding in the back of my head and stuff like that. So it just turns out it was like a completely unprovoked attack. Just this guy had then was gonna boot a knife.

He'd stabbed someone on a bus as well. they got the guy, thankfully. and a few of the witnesses that were on the street had come forward and, for the court case. And then he'd, got jailed for it. so I was like, that was where I was at university. That was my first year at uni.

And then. It was that thing where it really knocked my confidence. Like I felt I just didn't even know where I was at with things. It was like, okay, I've now got scars in my face. my accent's quite netty the way I speak, like my glaswegian accent. and the fact I was going bald.

So at that point, I'd shaved my head. So I was thinking that I've got a shaved head, scarred face, So I'm thinking at this point, right? I'm going out into the world effectively after this university course and trying to present myself with something and prior to that, I, if I seen someone with scars on their face, the first [00:24:00] thing you think is, oh, they're dodgy, or they're dangerous, or they've done something to deserve that. So I had this in my head, so like whenever I was speaking to people, I felt like I had to explain it like so that they didn't think that, I was deserving of it or that I'd done something.

So really knocked my confidence. So like the attack side of things, like my dad's, all these things that, kinda happened to you. I was just throwing myself into work. Work was like my therapy to an extent, but all I was really doing was putting it aside rather than dealing with it.

and I'd say therapy is probably like in the last maybe three to five years, I've been like going to therapy and things like that now and again, like dipping in and out when I feel that I need it. often a about a tangent there. Sorry. 

Radim: No, no, no, no, no. it's a great point to talk about because there is trauma and then there's, being a victim of a, crime, 

I never noticed your scars and, 

Chris: it's probably my age, the crow's feet. I'm getting older now, so the scar kind of blends in. 

Radim: but what you said about the confidence, obviously you thought because of your glass Ian accent, because obviously that's your identity.

'cause obviously you, might be losing [00:25:00] hair and you've got scars in your head, but that's the narrative you made in your head. Basically you thinking, well, what other people might be thinking about you, because you mentioned so many amazing things in this answer, like about, the self-acceptance for work and kind of keeping that wolf a door, like not dealing with the trauma because I.

I can't even imagine what happened when you got stitched up and you walked back up in the world because did you get any professional help? did someone understood your trauma? Did somebody say Hey, this is gonna have a massive knockback on your confidence, there are tools to help you to do this, or did you just let back out and go off you go?

Chris: No, there were, they, they did actually offer, there was like, as part of that procedure, like they send someone out to speak to you afterwards. and they offered different therapies and counseling sessions and things like that. But me being. Like the adamant to get back to uni and finish my course and stuff like that.

I just, never took them up on it. I just thought, I need to be strong and do this and just get back to uni. It was difficult 'cause I had to walk past that [00:26:00] area every day to get to uni. So it was kinda like that was the most difficult thing. I think once I'd overcame that, it was fine.

and I was back, kinda doing it. but it was weird as well. It had quite an effect because. At that point I was in a band, like I was a lead singer in a, pop punk band. And, I never went on stage And I, I, haven't done anything to do with a band since then. so I feel like I lost out quite a bit with that.

'cause we, one of the, we one of the best, we, one of the worst. We, we've played a fair few decent gigs.   

Radim: Did you ever regret it? Did you never go back on a stage? 

Chris: yeah. Yeah. definitely. I think it's one of these things now I'm kinda like that old roadie telling the story, I used to be in a band sort of thing.

but definitely, it was a nice creative outlet for me. because I used to write the songs that was almost like, kinda like a therapy as well, like an outlet. 

Radim: I think there's something about being on the stage. 'cause I, was in a band for a few years and different bands for a few years, and that feeling when you're on the stage and it's working again, acceptance.  

It's physical. [00:27:00] you know when you write a song with your mates and you don't hate each other yet and it's working. You've got the riff and then you go to the groove and like,okay, this is working. Then you put it on the stage, people like it. This is going good.  

I remember like for years and years and years, I had that physical sort of flashback. I'm like, I miss it. I miss the feeling. I don't miss anything around it, you mentioned that you, you said no to therapy back then, and I mean, I can understand that, in your early or late teenage, early twenties, you're like, what therapy?

Why have you know I can walk it off? You've mentioned that you have done therapy for the last few years. What was that nudge? When did you realize, actually, you know what, I might feel a little bit better if I do this.

Chris: I think it was, a number of probably just things at home as well. I. I think see with the stresses of the job, I was taking work home with me. I was taking those stresses home with me. So I wasn't even really nice to be around. I was stressed all the time. I was getting really agitated.

I was angry a lot. So it was more kinda [00:28:00] realizing the people around me were saying like, you're, addicted around, so sort this shit out.and I knew that I had a lot of things that were maybe unresolved, just like I say, and it's so strange. I never really used to talk about the mis traumas.

Like they, thing that happened at the uni or my dad did it, it was always just oh, it's just things that's happened, just got on. But I think that was an opener, like when I first went to therapy and spoke to them about that, and they'd said, well, actually, Shit, stuff to happen.

Like we should talk about that.and not feeling within myself that I was coping very well. So it was like, how do we, how do I stop using work as that crutch and actually work on myself and see how I can sort that?  

Radim: you know, when people around you tell you, you're a bit of, a map to be around. If somebody says it to you, believe them. because sometimes you get, people who love you, they're like, you, you come across really stressed. I'm like, oh, I'm great.

I'm absolutely brilliant. you're like, there's a really bad energy emanating can you please either sort it out or do something else? yeah, I was really stressed, wasn't I? It's if someone's trying to offer you help, be curious.

I think this is the [00:29:00] thing I've learned because yeah, doing it on your own and not having that many safety nets available to yourself like you had in an agency, like you have to come up with an idea, you have to deliver it, you have to justify it, obviously you have to defend it, sell it, think it through.

And then, it was exposing yourself. Like you can almost peeling off every layer, layer, layer, layer onto you there. Like,I am doing this with my heart on the sleeve and I have the resilience of many people just to get through. Because then when you get home after your four day week, you still wanna be on the other side rather than, still be in the trenches, fighting out with the clients.  

I wanna talk about our therapist a little bit more because. There is, yeah, as I said, the nudge, we need the nudge for us to say, I think you could do better. I'll be honest, it was my wife who said, when I was in a similar situation, she's like,I think you should do this.

And you, feel like from the perception of our culture, obviously being a man, like I guess I will do it. And it [00:30:00] almost like it felt a relief, but almost like also a disappointment like, oh, I have to do this. this feels a little bit alien and like it's, therapy really. Likehave I really lost it?

Or it just feels like there was like a stigma attached to it. What did it feel like for you? 

Chris: definitely. because I was so used to like within my job being the one that was responsible to do everything, it definitely had me in that mindset of, I don't need help. I'll deal with it, I'll work it, it myself.

Like I'll, manage. And when the day-to-day is that you're so used to doing things yourself, delivering it, and there's that almost trusted aspect that Okay. I can get through this, I can do it. So then when it was broached that maybe you need help, maybe you need some outside help, you need to speak to someone.

Definitely. it was like a feeling of no, no, I'll get that. Like just, leave me, I'll, sort it. I feel like I've failed at not sorting myself. it was kinda like that feeling. but definitely once I'd started was like, oh my God. Like I kinda wish I'd done it sooner.

it was one of those things I thought, do you know what it is [00:31:00] mad to not have done it through fear of the unknown or, the stigmas attached to it when really the benefits of it far outweigh any of that thinking. and now it has become almost like a kinda regular thing where I don't see it as a negative thing.

I like the idea of it's there when I need it. and that can be a sort of crutch in itself, and it means that I'm not using the work as much. which is good, 

Radim: the word sooner? I wish I had done it sooner. it's almost like that unknown that. Even in this sort of hyperconnected world, offers you advice for everything anyway.

grab a motivational quote and your child pumpkin spice latte or whatever it is, like we just know so much about things, but we don't always turn into the right signals, do we? Like it's available. It's not new. it's never really worked into our sort of daily lives, Like we didn't see our parents going to therapy. We didn't see our friends going to therapy. We didn't see our friends getting help. And I'm sure you might attest to it, like from the environment when we grew up, if someone needed a therapy, I'm like, oh my gosh, what is wrong with you?

what [00:32:00] is going on? Because it was designated to like really bad, severe cases, whereas we. Learn so much about how we eat, how we have to drive a car and there's so many things that we rely on other people to show us how to do it. And the thing that is the closest to us, we think it's just, as you said, I'll do it myself, I'll work it out.

maybe I'll read a self-help book and you just which one should buy. Okay. This doesn't make any sense.so yeah, I get this feedback from my books and from this podcast where people say, I wish I had done that thing sooner. I wish I had done it. And. I never really thought when it came to therapy that it would be marriage counseling.

Because of work and overworking myself, they would unlock a whole nia of like unresolved issues, because I have spent personally,from the age of 15, 16, I was in a band, then I was a DJ then I just kept myself busy at every single possible moment. I slept very little, but I kept [00:33:00] busy.

 that was my sort of excuse to not deal with any of it. did I feel weak to say I'm having a marriage counseling. That was the best thing I ever did. 

We had somebody to show us that you can listen to each other and not try to realize oh yeah, you know what? I'm in the right and everyone else is in the wrong, because that's usually when the problems that wrong, wrong. 

Chris: No, I've experienced that, but I think there's, something to be said to you're touching upon, like the, upbringing side of it.

Like I was brought up in a kinda working class environment where that was the kinda thing. It was like, just get on with it. like man up. Like just get that done. So it's hard not go along with that narrative when you do get older and you're start to think, all right, okay, I'll just get through it.

I'll just push through. I'll just push through. And, it's easy to do that, but think it's like the whole work thing that we talked about, it's like when you're in it, you don't really see it. you need to almost be told, whether that's through a trip to the hospital or friends and family saying, you need to look at this stuff and try to resolve it.

Radim: I'm very like that you open about this and obviously open [00:34:00] about,therapy in your LinkedIn posts and you obviously talk about it and Sometimes we just don't know when the wolf will get a little bit unleashed again and just help us to fix stuff.

Because when you think about mental health or mental fitness, it's a bit like physical fitness, Or like the way we eat, if you let things go a little bit bad or if, yougive into negative patterns or negative signals, it just accumulates, it's not just okay, which is one thing happen that would be fine.

so I'm, glad you're open about it because. People say sometimes, like you talk about therapy. and I wish I talked about therapy a lot more, a lot sooner because it's unlocked. Not so many things, but I wanna go to. The element of you working for an agency for quite a while and then you decided to do it on your own.  

What was the motivation? 

Chris: I think, so prior to the agency, so the agency job, I was there for two years. I started off as a graphic designer. I moved up to senior and then finally design director before I left. But prior [00:35:00] to that, I had done eight years working in-house for companies.

So I worked six years at a packaging company, and two years at a, pneumatic tooling company. So I had done effectively 10 years within the industry doing various different set of tasks. And I figured got to a point where myself and my wife had been talking about starting a family.

And I think I'd always had that burning desire to run my own thing. I think again, it was the control aspect of it. I had actually set up Stickman as a registered sole tradership way back at uni in oh six. And, it was because I designed a product for the smoking ban. So there's probably, I dunno, there'll be younger listeners who didn't know.

there was a smoking ban at some point. We used to be able to smoke in pubs and c I designed this product for the smoking ban and it had won some awards and I got to pitch the idea to Peter Jones from Dragons Den. So at that point I set the business up. That was initially why I set up Stickman.

at that point it was called stickman Innovative Design Solutions, which is ridiculous, they felt [00:36:00] on a business card. so that, again, you can sense the naivety and the branding aspect of it back then. so I'd set it up in oh six and then I'd always been working nights and weekends. So like I'd always been working, kinda like when I was working those main jobs, I was always doing stuff and, I'd built up a wee bit of client base.

And, so when I was in my last kinda year there at the university, at the, agency, and Nicola was starting to speak to me a bit like, listen, I'll be thinking about a family and things. It just felt like the right time. Like it felt like I didn't want to start a family and then think, let's jump out and go full-time freelance or run my own business.

'cause I just would never have done it. The comfort of having a salary and having a, job would've put me off doing it. So I think it just came a point in life where it'd been 10 years of working in the industry. We were talking about a family. It just felt at the right time it a try.

I think as well one of the things you were talking earlier about someone working with people and them handing off the job and they were on the tools and you were feeling jealous that, you weren't getting to do the fun bit. I [00:37:00] think in the later kinda part of that second year. I was doing a lot of the client, meetings, presentations, and not so much the hands-on stuff, but the hands-on parts the part I really enjoy.  

So I think that was another thing that was swaying it where I thought, at least if I'm working for myself, it's me that's hands-on and, I'm doing it. and also getting the recognition. A big part of that acceptance thing again was I want to be recognized for the work. Whereas you're a member of staff there, it's under their names.

Yeah. A few of those things kinda led me to think it was time. 

Radim: I always believe you are never in the wrong place doing what you do at more at that time, because it's part of our journey.

It's only like how your body is adjusting or how your mind is adjusting to your progress. Because you might be just used to the pattern of being on the tools and then you realize, I can't do all of this. I only get 10 fingers on two hands. we might need meeting more people and the people are doing the stuff.  

And that problem of self-acceptance, you don't wanna let go. You're like, I'm paying [00:38:00] you. This is my client, this is my work. This needs to be great. And then you realize, let go. Just let go. Just let go. Just let go. Because it's actually fun to do the client side. you don't get that physical feeling that, let's compare it to, let's say, being in a band on stage when it all clicks, when you do, a retouching piece or when you do something, when it works, when it clicks, you're like, hell yes, this is amazing.

And you realize, oh, we go again. We have to start from scratch again. You're sort of endless sort of fairy feel or whatever it's called. like the enlisted of hamster wheel. But enjoyable helps to feel colorful, but it's the fact that you need to just align. It's like we need to align where we are, obviously what we need to do and yeah, how we perceive ourselves.

Because I wanna talk from, obviously you go in on your own and how we do things. Now, we talked about a lot of dark things, but I wanna talk about the benefits, about those shiny moments when sunshine and ice cream appears, because obviously you're on your own, you steer in the ship, you can, put your discipline in place, you're [00:39:00] working four days a week, you got your clients respecting your time.

Must you seem happier even though, honestly, like you, are never, we as, humans. We'll never be a hundred percent like dark clouds, come after the, sunshine and hopefully they just pass as quickly as they came. But what is the most I. Satisfying thing and a benefit from being on your own for the last nine years.

Like when you look back, you go, this was a good decision. 

Chris: I think it's, it can be a, few different things. I think a personal development point of view. see if I achieved something that I've set out that's challenging, I, that maybe I'm learning a new skill or something happens that I'm like, coming up against something I've not experienced before and I overcome it.  

There's definitely that feeling of oh, great. Like you get that buzz from it, like that excitement. I think was never won for like awards and stuff like that. Like I've put myself up for a few and I won one recently, two last year for the dialing. And that's definitely been one of those moments where you get the feeling of oh shit, finally, Stickman has won Knot the agency or not that [00:40:00] someone else's company is like, it was off my own back.

So I think also when you start to land those bigger clients in the bigger paid projects, there's that feeling of not that you've made it, because I don't think that exists. Like I don't think there's a thing where someone says, oh, that must have been the thing where you made it.

I don't think we do. I think continuing to do it every year, like I'm fortunate enough to do that. I think that is making it.but yeah, so I, think it's a number of things, like the excitement from The recognition for the work. they're all the things, obviously the main thing, you want the client to be happy.

Chris: 'cause if they're not, they're not coming back to work with you again. So that's your focus when you're working on it. But the personal excitement comes from delivering well, doing the right thing, having recognition for it. I think that's the thing that keeps me going. And also it's fun.

I think as much as we can be so serious, like designers and creatives are about like, oh God, we're saving the world. we're not, we're not really I mean we're choosing nice fonts and colors and making people's lives visually more exciting. But,I think when it is sometimes no, take ourselves too seriously.[00:41:00] 

Radim: I think the serious part, I think it stems from everything that we've talked about It's the traumas, this is the reasons why we do this, why we hide behind, font and max screens and pain brushes. sometimes it's just that maybe the inability to actually verbalize how we feel, 

but let's zoom in on the development. What do you do? What is your toolkit for going forward and making things that are still sharp and fresh?   

Chris: So I think, obviously everyone's talking about the AI thing and I think we kind of escape it. It's something that's coming. And I what I try to do my best to do is just lean into these things. when I started at college and certainly the start part of uni, I was doing a lot of stuff. I didn't have a computer at home. Like I would use the studio, computers up at the university and everything we were doing was hand drawn sketches.

It was like lecture set.I wasn't using computers to do these presentations. then all of a sudden the computer comes along. There's all these software packages you need to learn. So it was just a bit developing and leaning into that. And I think AI's pretty much the same thing. Like it's something that's coming in whether we [00:42:00] like it or not, and 

if, if you don't start to learn about it and you don't start to see how it can fit in, then I think you're just gonna get left behind. Like the same way when the printing presses and stuff move to digital, like people who are on board just get left behind. And I think the exact same things will happen.  

 it's better to lean in and know about it than ignore it and then realize, oh shit, maybe I should have been learning those things. And I think as long as you're using it in the right ways where. you're using it in a way to take the mundane jobs or the shitty bits that you don't like to do, so that it frees you up to do the exciting bit as opposed to let it do all the cool creative shit.

I'm going to do the stuff that is boring. that just seems like the wrong balance. I think, using it in a way where it can free us up to do the stuff that we enjoy more than. Then I, can afford it. So I just keep up to date with things like that. I think try to learn new skills.

So like the 3D stuff. like again, I really enjoy that. I've always enjoyed the visualization stuff through Photoshop. I started using the crack copy I Photoshop, when I was like 16. Pretty much. Like most of these probably did, [00:43:00] Photoshop. Like there'sa thing called digi mods where you used to like Photoshop, like bumpers onto cars and stuff like that to make it look.

And I was a bit of a boy racer when I had my first Mazda. So like I would Photoshop it up with allowed to spoil and stuff. It all started with that. And then it was like stuff or web and stupid things like, I dunno, like Photoshop my mate's heads on you, like boobs and stuff.

Like just really stupid things when you're like 16. And then realized actually this is a cool tool for doing that sort of stuff. And then realized will pay for like visuals. So I suppose the 3D is just a move on from that rather than doing 120 layers to make up one image of stock. Like you're using maybe a bit of AI to visualize it, and then you're creating it in 3D.

So it's a tool really.but it's just another tool that needs to be learned. And that's what I was gonna say earlier, as I'm getting older, I find it harder there's so many new, tools. like, don't use XD now. Use Figma and Right. Okay. There's a relearning curve there.

And there's a new version of this. Go and learn these, I dunno, 50 to a hundred new, features. So just, don't get me wrong, it excites me still. I [00:44:00] think there are times where I get a bit. Kinda like bored of things. And I think right is it time for a change? Like I try and go back to more of the hands-on stuff like I was doing at uni albeit I wouldn't be doing the, the models and the sanding and like I think it would more be like 3D printing, nowadays.

But, I think the hands-on thing is definitely something that I'll probably revisit. 

Radim: I made a note, boy Racer Mazda. Yeah, love that. Absolutely love it. But I think it's that, genuine and innocent free for all, like, I mean we all remember what we did with our first questionable copy of Photoshop.

it's just the things that you're like, you don't really know and you don't really know where you should be going, but it doesn't matter. And what would you describe about the tools was like, I think you've got time and allowance in your sort of cognitive space. Okay, there's lots of new tools in this sort of new software.

That's what I want to do. But then you also. Just like a runner or like a Olympic runner, like you're not training forever, obviously you need to go and do the race. Obviously you are, building your toolkit. [00:45:00] I'm gonna use it now. See what I did wrong. Maybe I can fine tune it here and there.

Obviously carry on and, and do that because I think as a natural plateau to our interest. when, you and I, I don't know how much older I'm in, but I remember, the golden time of Adobe bringing new tools like 2005, 2006, there was a Lightroom came out and this came out and we got this effect to do and this feature and this, that when you look back.

It was lovely to have all those features, but did they survive? Did they prove their worth? No. It's the basics that started, my, most favorite feature in, Photoshop is selective color. that is the thing and, andit was invented it, like Photoshop three or something.  

But if you know what you're doing with it, you can do so much that you like, you don't need to know all that sort of bells and whistles because they're nice to have for something. It's that sprinkling, like it's that five spice in the back of your cupboard, oh yeah, I remember that one.

Is there, but through when you were describing them, AI and as a development, I made a note that I think people who [00:46:00] create change are scared of it. we are scared of the change because we tell ourselves that, okay, I've created my business. It's finally working. Let's enjoy the ride.

have you got your snacks? Are you ready? Have you got your pillow? let's go and do it. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You like, in the first destination, in the first stop, everything's changing. Or at least most of it's changing, at least. Or some of it written like inevitably you are like, what do you mean?

I just spend time building my business? yeah, every starting line it takes you back to the starting line. You you move away from it, but then there's another starting line, another change. So how do you see person change? it seems like you are happy to embrace it, but how do you see it personally?

Chris: it is hard. one of the things, like the reasons again, for the Friday carving that Friday to go for the four day week again, was to, to make sure there was time there for me to do things like that, to learn a bit more, maybe take a course, like things like that. and having that time set aside.

Even just sometimes using that day to be thinking about, where do I want the business to go? what do I actually want to do with things? [00:47:00] 'cause again, I've still got so many probably unanswered questions about what stickman is or what I want it to be. Like, what's it gonna be in the next five years?

What's it gonna be in the next 10 years? ' cause it's so it'll be nine years in, February, and it's it almost feels like that a year away from that monumental 10 year thing again. Like it feels as if it's coming to a point where I should be reevaluating stuff. so I don't, actually know.

it's still an unanswered question as to where I take it for here or how, but again, I think it'll be influenced by these new technologies. I think it'll be influenced by client needs. things like sustainability, packagings like a massive thing. So there's a learning curve with that, as well.

So there's always something that I think That kinda guides me in a way and in a sense, but yeah, it's hard to know. I don't have any, I don't have a plan. It was like when I started Stickman, I didn't have a business plan. I'm nine years in. I still don't have a plan. I'm just taking it as it comes.

Radim: I think when you mention about the tools and using them and needing to know about them, because when you think, like, when people start using the tool, when it's [00:48:00] new, everything looks the same, everyone's doing it, okay, this is the buttons. and you can almost feel impatient when you allow yourself time to step back and go, let me see first what everyone does, and then build on top of their mistakes.

it feels so not even tempting. It feels like it is necessary that you have to jump right in and press the buttons with everybody else. Because what they do, and they're creating data points, they're creating new examples like, oh, fellas, you haven't even actually changed the color in Photoshop after you generated image because.

Every image looks the same. It's either the same color or it looks somber. it's just like when Mid Journey came out, like everyone was pressing the buttons. I'm like, wait a minute, did everyone really get really good at 3D? No, no, no. they just started using some prompts.

You're like, am I seeing the post from the same person, person? No, no, no. It's different people using the same tool and it all looks the same. it's interesting and like,it's something that you can think of and it's there and I think that's for purpose of visualization and that's what helps you.

But if you've been working, just like yourself and me, if you've been working in industry [00:49:00] for a while, I mean we've been creating wild things in Photoshop for 20 years. You go an our director going, I want this with that one. Even with that under, I'm thinking, that is a bit mad. Let's do it. why not?

Whereas now you can Hey ai, show me the version of it. I'm like, yeah mate, this is not gonna work. But at least we had the idea, I think being able to create anything, people are always able to do a version of it and maybe even better, but it's where it takes us and I think it's a good thing to embrace and sometimes not having a plan and pressing the buttons, it's what keeps you Yeah.

Excited not being able to see in the dark, It's a good thing, sometimes we need to see in a dark, sometimes we don't. But Chris, wherever you take in stick mind in the next nine years is gonna be a 18-year-old by then. And maybe it will have a plan. Maybe we'll do something.

But thank you for sharing your story with me, because I think to have such a heavychapter in your life and.using work as a sort of crutch and a prop and a distraction [00:50:00] from, not dealing with it for a while, but now being on the other side, it takes gut and courage.

And I think, this is where real life matters rather than, choosing Gotham over, circular. so yeah, work looks great. Congratulations on the, latest wins. that Whiskey project was quite amazing and quite rightly, you're doing, extensive case studies, just assuming how you've done this because you put a lot of care and craft into your work.

So thank you. 

Chris: No, I really appreciate you saying that. Thanks very much. And, this, episodes are almost, feels like therapy for me. I feel like I've opened up quite a bit. so hopefully it's not been Too much a downer for people. but no, listen, thanks so much for having me on, Adam.

I really appreciate it. I know you've had some massive big names and, heavy hitters on here,I really appreciate you having me on and, also what you do for the creative community through your books and the, talks and the podcasts and stuff, I know that I've personally benefited from them, and I know that a ton of others have too.

So thanks for that. 

Radim: Thank you Chris. And it's time to self accept the space in the world, you deserve the space. So don't worry about who else have been on the podcast. I appreciate it. Thanks so much. And, I'm looking forward to have a jag of [00:51:00] Sangria somewhere in Barcelona soon at Off Festival or somewhere else because Yeah, good times.

they're never too far. Chris, keep doing what you're doing. It's been a pleasure, and I'll see you soon. 

Chris: Nice one. Thanks. Hey. Thank you for listening to this episode of Mindful Creative Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, or even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, rather man. Editing and audio production was massively done by Niall Mackay from Seven Million Bikes Podcast, and the theme music was written and produced by Jack James.

Radim: Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode.  [00:52:00]