How creative businesses thrive through authentic relationships - Emily Cohen & Hunter Vargas (Casa Davka) 🇺🇸

In this episode of Mindful Creative Podcast, host Radim Malinic speaks with Emily Cohen and her daughter Hunter Vargas of Casa Davka, business consultants for creative professionals. They discuss how creative businesses can evolve and grow, focusing on the critical importance of relationship building over traditional "selling." Emily shares her journey from designer to consultant, while Hunter explains how she naturally found her way to the family business despite initially carving her own path.

The conversation explores how creative business owners often struggle with business development, preferring to redesign websites or create marketing materials rather than building the personal relationships that truly drive business growth. Emily and Hunter emphasize that clients choose creative partners primarily because of relationships and trust ("building the love"), not just portfolios or pricing.

They challenge common myths in the creative industry, particularly the idea that hiring salespeople is effective (it rarely works) and that business development brings immediate results (it typically takes two years from first meeting to becoming a client). The pair discusses how to help introverted creatives approach relationship building in ways that feel natural and authentic.

Key takeaways 

• Creative business owners should position themselves as business people first, designers second
• Effective positioning requires identifying unique industry niches, services, and genuine differentiators
• "Building the love" through authentic relationships is more valuable than traditional sales approaches
• Business development is a daily habit that feeds the business engine continuously
• Patience is crucial - relationship building typically takes two years to convert contacts to clients
• Principles/founders must do their own relationship building; salespeople rarely succeed in creative businesses
• Creatives should stop comparing themselves to others and focus on their unique strengths
• Designers should capture and communicate metrics and results, not just creative decisions
• Being ready for change is essential for creative businesses looking to evolve
• Creative business consultants should practice what they preach in their own business approach

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Transcript

Hunter: [00:00:00] I think one thing we always ask our clients, and We also recommend our clients like, are you ready for change? We're not saying that you need to change tomorrow. We're not saying we're gonna tell you exactly this is what you need to be, but we need you to be ready to change.

we need you to be ready to experiment and try things and potentially fail, but also potentially succeed. Like we always talk to our clients about that before they and our clients, right? When we're also in that relationship building stage  like,  listen, if you wanna work with us, if you're not willing to change, it's not worth your money. 

Welcome to Mindful Creative Podcast, a show about understanding how to deal with the 

highs and lows of creative lives. My name is Radnich and Creativity changed my life, but it also nearly killed me in this season. Inspired by my book of the same title, I'm talking to some of the most celebrated figures in a creative industry.[00:01:00] 

In our candid conversations, 

my guests share their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles. How they learn to grow as creatives a creative career in the 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career.

So Thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life.

You ready?

Radim: My guests today are business partners, consultants, and mother daughter duo working under the name of Casa dka. They offer customized solutions to creative studios to refine, evolve, and elevate their strategies and practices. In our conversation, we discuss how creative businesses can evolve and grow by focusing on the critical importance of relationship building over traditional selling.

This conversations explore how these. This conversation explores how business owners can often struggle with business development, and often they are focusing on marketing materials rather than building those relationship. This conversation explores, fuck me. This conversation [00:02:00] explores how business owners often struggle with business development, often focusing on marketing materials rather than building those relationships that can truly drive business growth.

We also dispel and challenge a few common myths in the creative in. We also dispel and challenge a few other common myths in the creative industry and creative business. It's my pleasure to introduce Emily Cohen and Har Vargas from casa com.

 Hi, Emily. Hi Hunter. How are you doing today? Great. How are you? Uh, it's great to have you on the show because this is the first time that we have, uh, a mother and daughter on the show, which we never really had, and a, and a and a business team, creative team. And I've got lots of questions, you know, so I think we'll get on really well.

So hopefully Yeah, I'm sure. We'll, I mean, between two of you, I think we'll get a, a lot, but if someone may have not have heard of Casa DKA or Emily Cohen or Hunter Vargas, how would you introduce yourselves? 

Emily: Want me to take this? Okay. So, uh, basically we are business consultants for creative professionals, largely small to mid-size, um, creative teams, advertising, marketing firms, um, and we help them evolve and grow their business.

Anything from like looking at their big picture vision, like starting from, like who do they wanna be in a few years, years, and then help them get there. And that looks at things like positioning and specialization, business [00:03:00] development strategies, staff, client and project management strategies, pricing, kind of the big picture of like where they're going and how, and giving them step by step of how to get there.

And a lot of our clients are usually like, at real kind of inflection points in our, in their business where they've, you know, really been in business for five years or so and are doing really well, but they wanted to take their business next level. And other cases, they've been in business for a longer time and they really wanna keep evolving and see what's next.

Radim: I like it. I like it. Um, I think we should talk about what you do. I think we should talk about it. Um, so you mentioned, so I mentioned you are consultants because I actually, I had, I had, I was trying to do my research on you guys and I couldn't really find any of your work. 'cause obviously I've seen you, Emily, I, I saw you speaking in, uh, design Thinkers in Toronto a couple of years ago, and your, uh, talk was very passionate about like how we should conduct ourselves and what should we do, how we should not do our practices.

And now we. Yeah, very much so. Um, hunter, how did you come to consultancy? Did you get roped in because your mom needed more, more Mom? 

Hunter: Definitely a little. It's hard to fight the nature nurture. Not sure which one you could blame maybe both. Um, not blame, but you could put the ball too. So I, yeah, I kind of grew up in the industry, but I always sort of had a similar, I think affinity as my mom does for both the creative and business side.

kind of, she was a designer for a while. I like quickly dabbled in high school and design and I'm like, wow, I can't do this. Like, being creative every day in that manner was really, really tough for me. While some people comes really naturally and they love it, but what I loved is like working with the creatives.

So it's kind of a similar sort of, if anywhere I realized I love being [00:04:00] with creative, but I kind of thrive more on the business and process and operations and like that sort of like what is it the left, is it the left or the right brain? The other side of things while still like being able to understand the creative mindset and like working with.

Creatives. And so I went to business school and sort of worked within our clients' firms, essentially who our clients are now, um, as like a project manager, account manager, business, developed operations, doing all those things to really kind of get a sense for the inner workings of, uh, creative firms and agencies.

so, but still kind of really realizing that I loved kind of just being surrounded by creatives and surrounded by creativity and being involved in it without having to be the person to actually like put, you know, beautiful things to paper. 

Radim: So normally I get, gets on my show and I'm trying to retrace the sort of first not exposure to creativity and how their parents influenced them.

This time actually I can do it live because I can ask Hunter what it was like to be growing up around, you know, a creative parent. So what was that [00:05:00] like? 

Emily: She's in therapy now. I'm just saying, 

Hunter: No, I mean, I think not only like the creative poem, and I think, you know, I grew up around a mom who is very entrepreneurial, is very passionate about what she does and who she works with.

And, um, I think obviously that like inspired me in lots of ways and also made me, you know, pushed me in different ways and made me a different person or made me who I am. Um, but I think being surrounded by that was really, you know, pretty incredible. Especially I think during, not to be like, but generationally, like a woman owning her business and really like being like one of the top, if not one of the top consultants in the agency, in the, in the industry, um, was really inspiring and cool.

And I think it pushed me to really also be very entrepreneurial and to look for what I really wanted to do and make the niche for myself, um, even though the niche ended up being a similar niche to what she does. Um, so yeah, I don't know. It's hard to like fully trace it, but Obviously she was an influence, but I think I also carved my own path in a lot of ways.

And we just happened to kind of end up in similar areas 

Emily: that was very important to us. Like she was not groomed to take over my business. Right. Uh, she was really just groomed to be who she [00:06:00] was and where she wanted to be, but she naturally gets influenced by things as well.

Um, and we have very similar, I don't know if you've ever taken like a behavioralist test, but we've had very similar behavioral qualities, but very different motivations. So it's been a good combination to have her as part of the team, but I really liked that she had her own life way before she joined my business.

Like she had jobs, she worked in the creative field, you know, so she had a lot of experience coming into it. She didn't just come right outta college and work with me, which was very important to us. 

Radim: So, Emily, let me actually take it now, a few steps back in your life. So who was your inspiration? 

Emily: Oh, that's really easy.

My father. Actually, yeah, my father owned two bookstores in Manhattan and he was also very entrepreneurial, a little quirky, uh, but very entrepreneurial. and he lived for his job. but he was an artist at heart, so he really cared about the arts. So I grew up in museums and really with culture, everything was about culture.

And, um, he kind of pushed me to be an artist more than I even wanted to be. So I went to design school. I went actually [00:07:00] originally for painting, switched to design 'cause I really like money and I didn't wanna be a broke artist.  uh, and I went to design school, graduated with a design degree.

My father was thrilled. Um, and I was a designer for many, many years. Um, well not many years like I. Right outta school, I think about three or four years until I realized that I wasn't great at it and I didn't have the passion for it. But I loved the industry. So I was involved very, very early on in my career in the A IGA, uh, which is the, you know, the American version of like the DBA in London.

Um, so although the DBA is kind of whatever, much better, uh, that's a whole other conversation. Um, and because I was involved in the industry, I realized I didn't wanna leave it, but I wanted to stay in it, but not be a designer. And when I first started my career, there really wasn't somebody that ran design studios, right, other than the principles.

And there was no such thing as account managers in design at that time, or even studio managers or project managers. It was mostly artists who created. Right. And so I just kind of asked a bunch of people, 'cause I knew so many people in the industry, um, that I just kind of asked them what I should do 'cause I want to stay in the industry.

And they all kind of said, you're really good at kind of managing people and clients and really, you know, engaging in that way and very [00:08:00] business driven. You should run a studio, but there was no positions like that. So I just went to a bunch of studios and offered myself as saying I can manage your clients and projects.

And they were like, that's cool. And I got pretty much seven job offers in a week, almost. Exactly. Um, and I took the one that paid the highest and ran a studio for seven years and grew them from five people to 50. So I had a lot of experience managing, growing the studio. And then as I was there, I started getting freelance clients.

You know, from all my connections. So I started working with pretty famous people, almost at the very beginning of my career. Like Lloyd Ziff, who at that time was the, a very famous creative director, Ruth Ansel, Louise Feeley, and a bunch of other people, um, that now are much older, but they were a pretty influential in the industry, and so they had friends.

And so the word spread pretty quickly that there was this woman who loved the business side, and then I built up the business basically. And so I ended up quitting my full-time job and running a consultancy. 

Radim: I mean, that's a fantastic story. 'cause I mean, the way you describe it, I mean, it would be a godsend to [00:09:00] anyone, anywhere, anytime, because.

Creative sort of, and, I mean, speaking from my experience, like I have to graduate to be you know, someone who runs a studio and manage my own clients and manage my staff. And you don't really know what you're doing sometimes. Well, most of the times. And I think like, it's that thing when you mention like, you start working with clients of their inflection points instead of when they start growing or when they're stagnating.

It's how do you, I mean, almost makes me think like, how would you, um, convince people that they need your help? Because it's that first point of like, putting your hand up and saying, I need help. We need to do this because I'll write books for creatives for various situations in their lives to feel better, you know, to do better.

And they were like, oh, I wish I read your book. and like five years ago I wish I read your book sooner because we kind of sort of delay things. So, uh, with your experience, is it a hard sell to get someone to actually, you know, think differently about a business? 

Hunter: I mean, I don't think so actually.

I mean, maybe it was different when she first started business, but I think creatives are really realizing, especially ones that run businesses and the ones that wanna run successful businesses. Not that they need us to run a successful business, but they're realizing that running a creative business is not just design, it's not just creative, right?

You need to do the business side of it in order for it to be successful, in order for you to do the design and the art that you love. And so I [00:10:00] think a lot of times people, we don't really have to convince 'em, they just realize they're, kind of at a point where they're like, I've stagnated with what I've learned and what I know, and I wanna bring in an expert.

To provide support. And I think also why, what really works about our approach and what we, love about our jobs is we're not the kind of like cookie cutter consultants. We're like, here's A, B, and C. If you don't do A, B and C, you're gonna fail. That's not what we do. Right? we like to listen to our clients, we like to listen to their ideas, we like to listen to their pushback.

We like to push them, we like to get them to step outside their comfort zone. We like to kind of work through and brainstorm sort of like the creative process, right? Like what will work for them in terms of what they want for their firm. 'cause not everyone wants the same things for their firms.

People have different drivers, different motivators behind why they run their, agency or firm. And we really like to work with our clients on that. So I think that's why like people particularly like work with us and they select us is because we're also humans and we wanna understand their human side and understand who they are as people and how that affects their business and their goals and.

What types of clients they work for and you know, how they build a staffing model and every little area of [00:11:00] their business it touches. 

Emily: And we also like to practice what we preach, right? So we really preach that we shouldn't ever try to convince people to work with us, and designers shouldn't either, because if you have to convince them, that's gonna be a much harder sell.

So we really believe in building relationships. So this is how we built a business, is based on relationships and building the love. Like, I just knew so many people. I was involved in the industry, I showed I cared, you know, and the word spread really quickly and continues to spread, right? So we never have to convince people, they mostly come to us.

Um, but we also just nurture relationships. Like you, I've met you years ago, right? Like, you know, we met at a conference we were both speaking at. So I think that happens a lot where I meet people at conferences, they become clients. You know, hunter meets people, they become clients. 

Hunter: if someone reached out to us and they're not like at the right point in their business, right?

I mean, they've just started their business. Or, you know, usually around that time like, we kind of tell 'em like, Hey, we actually don't think this is the right time to work with us. 'cause right now you need just to take action. Like we created our book to be like an accessible resource for people who are kind of more at those beginning stages.

You kind of need to like take the action and do things in your own, [00:12:00] come to us in like three to five years. Once you have a little bit some things more solidified. So we're also like very honest with our clients and still building relationships and still being there for people. But I think that's also part of what we do.

Radim: Should we talk more about your process? Because I like what you just said, like, we don't need to convince them to work with us. Just like they don't need to convince their clients to work with them. There's a lot of behavior online and out there that people really try to sell hard because of various reasons.

And from experience we all know that as soon as you start sort of tweaking the price or try to sort of like go out of your way you're setting yourself a failure already. let's talk more about your process. So like how you get your clients to not needing to convince their clients to work with them.

Emily: Yeah, I think we talk a lot about this with our clients. Like we spend a lot of time thinking about who they are and what makes them different and what makes them stand out. A lot of designers, they get most of their business through referrals, right? And that's great, that's a great way to get business, right?

Because people love you and they wanna come to you, but [00:13:00] that allows the people that you already work with to create the direction of your business. So other people are in control of the direction of your business. And so we really talk about why you should be doing business development. So we try to eliminate words like selling and cold calls and business development. We really call it relationship building. And we teach our clients just that. It's not about like the immediate win. And talking to somebody and expect business to come like in the second flat. Like it takes time. And we usually tell people, and designers are so good with patience, as I say, kind of sarcastically, uh, it takes, business development takes two years from when you meet, when meet with somebody to when they turn into a client and you just need to be patient and stay in touch with people, right?

So we teach our clients about how to build that, connect, how to build that network, how to stay in touch with them, how to nurture that love and nurture that trust and  um, Stay relevant and stay like in their eyes. So what does that look like? You know, designers, for some reason, they think business development is relaunching their [00:14:00] website.

Right? Okay. I just need to do a better website. Designers like to design stuff or run a podcast or do a, like, I don't know. I. Design swag. That's not business development, that's marketing. Right. So we teach them the difference and where the efforts should be is more in business development. 

Hunter: just to add to that, I think like we also tell our clients to remember that they're experts, right? I think a lot of times, because designers feel very attached to their work and they can be very like, you know, it's my art even, you know, Like, they feel very connected to it, which is great, but it's also a service, a value added service you're provide to clients that drives results, right?

It's not just something you're doing to do, it's something that is gonna result in an impact for your client. So we kind of push our clients too. Yes, we push our clients to understand that. What they do provides value to their clients. And so they should position themselves that way and talk about their experts and show and figure out how to prove the results of their work and how to work with clients to think a little bit more strategically about why, you know, the kind of, the basis of the creative work they're doing.

[00:15:00] And so I think that also that expertise is like reminding our clients that they are experts, right? That they have something unique to provide and standing up for themselves and their value. Whether that's in pricing, whether that's in terms of if a client has feedback of change this color, not just changing it, right?

Speaking to the client about why you chose this color over the other color. Very, very simple. Uh, example there, but similar, like I think a lot of our clients are, they used to, you know, they wanna roll over for their clients because they think that's the right thing to do and really they should be standing up for the value and the actual impact their work will have and does have.

Radim: I mean, you mentioned two years. It takes two years to turn a contact into a client. And then you mentioned about patience. You see where I'm going with this. I'm a designer. I run a studio. Uh, do I really wanna wait for two years for a client? Um.

I know, I know. And, and I think, I think this is like, I, obviously speaking to those, obviously I, I'm, I'm 25 years on my journey, so I'm as patient as they come. as, as designers, You know, I believe that what we do as a surveys and you know, as you said Hunter, like we are experts.

You know, like we, we, we know the stuff that we should be delivering, but we also work in, in partnership with our clients. Like, you can't expect everyone to be genius. Not, you can't expect 'em to be stupid. So like we actually work with them just to lead the process and actually inject our expertise into the process.

But when people don't look after their systems and, and get it onboarding new clients or looking after new business or business development, it's easy then to have a gap and start panicking, oh, we do need a new website. That's definitely what we need to do. And it's just a cop out, I think. Is there, is there some point of actually.

Vulnerability or some sort of like anxiety that sort of, we, we sort of distract [00:16:00] ourselves by re redesigning our websites and, and sort of doing all the marketing stuff rather than focusing on business. Is that more about the worry? 

Hunter: I think I mean, that's very human, to me. That sounds like the most human thing.

When you think about anyone's to-do list, right? Like what's the first thing you wanna tackle? The stuff that feels like easy and quick when you know the stuff that's kind of the harder, like, maybe it doesn't, it's not even any like, maybe it's still quick, but it like, requires a lot more thinking or involves engaging with other people or involves leaving your house or whatever it means.

I think it's very human for us to just wanna go to the things that feel like quick fixes, like you know, the one size fits all solution. When in fact, you know, some of the things, but the things that are gonna have more impact and more value and have longer term reach or impact are those things that maybe are a little bit harder, which, you know, includes like building relationships, which may seem harder, but in the long term, they're gonna have more impact and potentially take less time than it did to redo your entire website, which would have less impact longer term, most likely.

Emily: And the other thing we, teach our clients is that business, these relationship building thing,  uh, it's every day it's a habit so the engine's being fed [00:17:00] all the time. So that, yes, you'll see work coming in more in two years, but there will be some immediate impact as well.

And you're still taking on referrals. We're never telling our clients to fire the clients they're working with unless there are some that maybe deserve being, you know, let go. But for the most part, we're teaching our clients how to build their, firm for the future. And we obviously help them also kind of.

With kind of current challenges, but we also are looking at the future and like, what can you do? And a lot of people only do business development or reach out to clients when they're slow. And that's why if this is a consistent habit and a role of the principal of a firm, it's really to build those relationships and to keep 'em going.

'cause then you'll feed the engine and the engine will feed you back. So it's very much just a habit that we try to teach our clients. So it's not, like a game of waiting two years, right? Almost always when we work with our clients, they see immediate results. 'cause now they know about, the other thing is they don't know how to speak about themselves, right?

Because all designers sound the same. They use the same words to describe themselves. So we really try to work with them on what [00:18:00] makes them different so that when they can speak about themselves, they're actually sounding as unique as they can in a very, very saturated market. 

Radim:  um, I always promise myself not to be willing out the one quote that I could just grind to death on this podcast, and that is that the market is only saturated if you look in sound like everybody else.

We know that there's, there's, there's a proof to this. Like there is, can close your eyes, hide that sensor logo on someone's website, scroll through the work, like, it could be anyone, it could be anything. And that, that, that, that's for the world of 3G. That's the world of branding. And this is not, she talking like, this is actually like, we have good, good in branding.

We have got good in sort of, uh, you know, animations effects. We've got really good, we've got a lot more people doing this stuff, and we've got these trends that sort of prevail in all sorts of different corners of, of, of the world. But the problem just then, I think from, from how I see it, um, is that every, everything looks the same.

Everything looks very close, and it's hard to make that cut through because it's like, as you said, like we teach, we teach our clients how to speak about themselves because you see those cliche lines like, oh, we wanna work with ambitious clients. I'm like, I. Who doesn't like, which client is not ambitious.

Like, it's like, oh yeah. So, um, how, I mean, I've got a few notes how I want to lead this, but yeah, let's talk about that part about how you teach your clients to speak about themselves and like, what is the sort of thing to look out for and use to get an idea of what is the first step to, you know, sound like you should sound, and that makes it sound, you know, different to anybody else.

Emily: Yeah. Hunter, you wanna take this? Okay. So we look at three areas of your position, right? So we always look at what your area of industry or your vertical market is, right? what industries are you going after? Who your clients are, right? Because if you're trying to reach everybody, then nobody knows about you and everybody's trying to reach everybody.

So really trying to niche down because the more you niche in terms of who you're trying to speak to, the more you can go to those communities and speak to them and tailor your messaging to them. So part of it is looking at your vertical markets, who's your industries? And we don't ever recommend just one.

We usually recommend you know, two to three or three to four. You know, just so you have, you're not just worried [00:19:00] about economic trends, you're really looking. And ideally, if they're all related, we also look at services. You know, can we niche down in terms of services? Can we tighten what we do?

Can we think about elevating what we do? What are the kind of core services that we provide? That's not necessarily what's gonna make us different from everybody else, but at least what the industries that we're going after need. And what we're great at, right? And the third thing we look at, and this is the hardest part of what we do, is what the differentiators are.

That's some kind of softer stuff. So we get really personal with them deep about their process, their background, their history, their approach, their style, their process, trying to uncover. And this is a lot of the brainstorming part we do of like what truly makes them different, um, and how they approach clients projects, how they work, how they can be interacted with, you know, what their personality is like.

So we try to combine those three elements into some sort of positioning statement with them. That sounds different. One of the things we always start off with, which is always really fun, is we have this document of [00:20:00] all the gobbly, we call it gobbly book positioning that's out there. we went to a million websites, we captured everybody's, you know, unique positioning, put it all in one document so that our clients could see how everybody sounds the same.

And so that really starts them off with understanding that they even sound the same and they need to make it different. 

Radim: From top of your head, can you give us some examples of how everyone sounds the same?  Hunter? Can you remember 

Emily: we do branding and Yeah. It's like, oh my god. so much like it's a lot of around social good and nonprofits, so, so we Purpose-driven, mission-driven, all those words.

'cause designers, we care about the world. you know, we're truly empathetic human beings, right? So that's why I working with them. But that's what drive us crazy. 'cause they all wanna work just with nonprofits and nonprofits. Everybody does nonprofits, right? Or restaurants or hospitality.

There's certain industries that are. Fun to work in, or more creative and they wanna do good for the world. So we really try to get them even to further look at that and say, there are companies that do good that are for-profit companies, there [00:21:00] are companies that, how can we get deeper into the for-profit into the nonprofits that we'd love?

Like what kinds of nonprofits? 

Hunter: I also think a lot of people like think their approach is very unique. Like, oh, we're a collaborative firm who approaches things with humanity and curiosity.  like, okay, like we hope so, like, and we're not saying that any of those words necessarily bad and that they're not necessarily unique to you.

But you know, think about what does curiosity mean? So whatever someone brings up a word like that when we're brainstorming differentiators and how they wanna bring to clients, it's like, well, what does curiosity mean to your firm? What, how does that actually come to life with your clients? Is it your strategic approach?

What does that look like? And how can we convey that in a better way? Is it. The way maybe you approach design in an experimental way, like you're always looking at the new tools and the new systems and the new ways to approach branding, is that your curiosity? So always like to make sure our clients dig deep, because at end of the day, like, you know, you know, while we're all unique, we're also, you know, we can't all be unique.

There's always things that don't overlap, and I think that's why, like, when we think about language, while a positioning statement is important, right, it helps you kind of like solidify like who you are and what you [00:22:00] want. Really, it's about those relationships. It goes back to bit like relationship building, right?

What's really going to set you apart from someone who's working in the same industry, working with the same clients as you, from someone who's working with the same services is who you are and how the relationship you've built with someone you could win. Like, you know, if you built trust with a prospect, let's say you know them before a project even came to happen, or, you know, you presented them in a way that wasn't super salesy.

When push comes to shove, if there's things that it's coming down to, like a budget issue or you know, a scope issue or whatever, you're against someone who is gonna be able to do X, Y, and Z. When you didn't provide that, they're gonna come to you and be like, how can we make this work? Because they love you and they don't love just your positioning or what your expertise is.

Right? They love you and they love the way you've built the relationship with them. And so, while the language is important to kind of like solidify your expertise, it's also the relationship building. That's the important part. That's what's gonna push the client over the edge in a good way. 

Emily: And we call that building the love.

That's our, like, big, you know, vision like [00:23:00] philosophy, like it's about building the love so that like, when they come to you, , it's really just a conversation. It's not a convincing, it's not a sales thing, it's not a negotiation. You might be up against people like Hunter said, but they're gonna pick you because they love you and all the other stuff is just a negotiation.

And we do the same here. So we are up against other consultants, right? And we know all the, you know, that's the other thing. also recommend that our clients become peers and colleagues with their competitors, not competitors. So, like, our competitors are my friends. Like I know all the other consultants out there.

And I'm not necessarily socializing, we see each other a lot. We speak to each other a lot. We help each other out. We recommend clients to each other. We scare each other away from other clients. You know, like, so, you know,  and we recommend that our clients do the same,  like  speak to their peers, know who they compete against, so that what we're competing against is not price.

Emily: We're competing based on do they like us? And each of us is unique. It's each of, like, every designer works differently and has different approaches. So if somebody, a client's gonna pick you based on who you are and who your team is, more than anything else, more than your work, more [00:24:00] than your price. 

Radim: it's a nice thing you're describing, like, because I think you're approaching what you do from a point of confidence.

 You know, like you are comfortable with what you do. You know your processes, you know what value you can add. Therefore, when you've accepted the way you do it.  you know, any feelings of comparison that they're not there because You're doing your own thing. And I think this is the element with our creative work and creative businesses, like when we accept that we are what we do and Mr.

This is our work and this is our uniqueness in a way, we can start looking forward. Because how easy is to get distracted going like that looks good. That looks good. Oh, can I be as good as those people can? I'm like, oh, but you're not really modern than your agency.  Um,  from my view, you're not modeling in your agency or, your creative career and what you really wanna be doing.

You're just trying to emulate something, which might be an easy win.  Right?  

Hunter: Yeah. I think it's funny because a lot of times, like, especially when people are first coming to us, when we're checking with a client we haven't heard for a bit, the first thing they wanna know is how other people are doing and what other people are doing and what works for them.

And they'll say, this firm is killing it and I wanna be like them. And we're like, okay, but we kind of know what's going. And I'll be like, we don't [00:25:00] reveal any of our client's secrets, but we're like, we know what's going on.  Like,  you don't know whatever is truly going on.

Even behind the big agencies you think are like the most successful tackling the biggest brands in the world, you really compare. Well Well  there's  like probably some cliche around comparisons, right? It's like you have to trust and be confident in who you are and that's how your business is gonna succeed.

And we feel that about our business too. And we always tell our clients that we're saying, yeah, of course our consulting practice, we curate best practices. We learn so much from our clients and we bring those other clients. At the end of the day, every firm is unique. You have unique needs, you have unique ways of present to yourself and what's gonna work for one firm might not work for another.

And not that no one's doing as great as they seem, but everyone has their own struggles. Everyone has their own opportunities. Everyone has their own challenges that are unique to them. In comparison it's not going to help because it's not gonna get you anywhere, right? Like instead of spending time comparing, spend time focusing on what you want and what your business is.

And we do the same for our business.  like, you know, you probably saw our website. It's pretty simple and it's pretty fun and there's not like a ton of information. It's just sort of like, here's what we do. If you're interested, reach out and we'll talk. [00:26:00] And that has really worked for us, right?

Where there's some consultants, the other websites like there's lots of resources and not that resource is bad. We have resources, but there's lots of information and lots of numbers and lots of data points and all these like things like, this is the percentage you should be going for. But  like,  that's not who we are.

We're okay. That being those consultants, we talk about it a lot. And we're okay with that. And that's why our clients come to us and that's why they choose us, and that's why they love us. And we recommend the same things for our clients. 

Radim: I can definitely relate to conversations I had with some big agency, uh, owners.

Founders, and  you know,  it looks great. It looks great on the outside, and they have a conversation behind closed doors. You're like, yeah,  I mean, you know,  it's, bigger agency, bigger problems. But, uh, kind of makes me think of like when you were saying like, our clients wanna know how other clients are doing stuff, and I had this great quote by Dan Martel who said, the grass is not greener on the other side.

The grass is greener, but it's being watered. That's where the grass is greener. Yeah, You know, I mean, he's got some good quotes. Um, but that's, the part, like I think there's a bit of a psychology, like how we try to,  you know,  delay the new website because  like  that's the next thing we're [00:27:00] gonna do for us, for our business.

And  like, kind of, just not admit that there might be some problems or some failures or some things cause what we don't know. Sometimes doesn't hurt, right? So it's not that we are always so happy to be self audit ourselves or how to  sort of  look at our financial.

It's like as long as the lights are on, as people are paid and all that, that's okay, but I'll be looking after our growth. I've been making plans, not really, and earlier, I spoke to Talia Cotton yesterday and her approach to setting up her business was mind blowing. Like it was literally so strategic.

It was like, I have never really spoken to anyone like this because she had a lawyer, bookkeeper and accountant before she even opened her doors. I'm like, I know hundreds of people who just basically got a Mackay and said, I've got a business. That's pretty much how everything started. And then kind of like you know, you backtrack on everything.

You backdate things and you're catching up on things that you should have in the first instance. Because we do this thing because we love the thing and  sort of  catch up with the business when necessary. 

Emily: Yeah. And I think that's when people come to us, like most people just start their business and they run the business and they're doing well, right?

They come to us at a moment when something, what they've done is not sustainable anymore, or it just got 'em so far and wants to get how do they get to the next level? So that's when they need, like the vision, the plan, the strategic approach. And that's what we help our clients. That's what we love working with our clients on is like, where do they wanna go and what are the steps to get there?

That's  kind of  really important. So thinking strategically,  you know,  when you first start your business, you do not need to [00:28:00] think strategically that much. You just wanna start your business, right? But after a while, you have to really think about what's the plan, what's the vision? And we constantly do that with our own business.

We're always looking at what's next, what's next? What's next? How can we evolve? How can we grow?

Radim: Yeah,  Um, so with your clients, you talk about relationship building, um, I mean, lots of people would say, oh, I'm an introvert. I'm doing this because I'm an introvert. I, have fallen into this thing called business, creative business.

But you know what,  you know, I'm not here for pitching. I'm not here for cold calling. I'm not here for making, I, I don't want to go networking,  you know, just wanna be quietly a millionaire by doing the thing what I do and make sure that everything's happening Smart. My work's great and I don't have to talk about it much, but the world is changing, right?

The world is changing so much that we know more about, you know, how we need to present ourselves. Because, you know, 20, 30, 40 years ago, you know, there was the principle of the agency of the studio and od they were doing the talking. and there was the minions behind them doing the work.

But now we've got, now we've got strong personalities like that. like, there's more conversation about creativity than ever before, in my opinion. So how would you get people to.  Sort of  push on and actually be more verbal about their work and grow confident and not come to that terms that they actually have to start  sort of  making some business development and make relationships.

Hunter: I think what we tell people is like, there's like the standard ways you think about business development, right? But you could do those in ways that are comfortable for you.  kind of [00:29:00] Relationship building is like making friends. Everyone makes friends differently, right?

Some people are really good at  like  going into a big party and they immediately  like  find a group of friends. Some people are just really good at maybe like sitting in a park and approaching someone who looks kind or some people use apps and that works for them to make friends, like everyone or whatever, romantic relationships, however you wanna phrase this and you could  kind of  apply the same things for business, right?

 Like,  think about what works for you. Is one-on-one better some people like find it easier to enter a room with strangers and some people find it much harder, but there are people who find it easier. So it's like you  kind of  have to think about what works for you and we always work with our clients,  kind of  figure out that thing and find a way to build relationships that feels right to you.

Even as an introvert. Introvert, still have friends, introverts still live in society successfully and you could do the same thing with your business and maybe a lot of our introvert clients, building an expertise is something that really helps 'em, right? Because, and something, an expertise they're like passionate about because then that's something they could speak about and they could go to very tailored things that makes it really comfortable and confident for to, because they have an expertise they could [00:30:00] speak on and they're meeting people of similar interests and then they could really have something to latch onto.

So that's something we  kind of  like always  kind of  speak to. I think that's another reason why having an expertise as a firm is important, especially if potentially leadership are more introverted.  Um,  but I also think,  you know,  we do sometimes reality check our clients and say,  you know,  you start affirm, that's great.

Running a business is no joke. it requires,  you know,  effort. Like I entered in this business and  you know,  I grew up with an entrepreneur mom. I thought I knew everything about what running a business would be. All the struggles, what would be easy. And there's still things that are surprising me every day and things that are harder for me than I thought they would be knowing about it.

And so we do talk to our clients. We're like, this is what it takes to run a business. And we wanna find ways that work for you. But there are some things that you  kind of  have to do and you might have to put yourself in your comfort zone to run the business successfully.  kind of 

Emily: and it's  kind of  your job.

Honestly. I think a lot of designers wanna start their business 'cause they want to not be directed by others or they want freedom and flexibility. But you need to start your business knowing that you're a business person first and a designer second. I hate to say that, but a lot of people, we have to [00:31:00] try to tell them that if you want a successful career.

if you want staff, like, if you would just wanna be like an independent designer, you don't have to sell too much.  Right?  But if you wanna have a, a team or like a reputation, you have to put some effort into it. And it's always, always the job of the principal to do business development.  You know,  one of the things that a lot of our clients try to get us to do is say  like,  I just wanna hire, and that they always  like,  we want you to teach us how to hire a good salesperson.

And we're like, you are gonna be the salesperson and we'll teach you, but you do not need to hire a salesperson. We always talk about how that is such a not the right practice. It's always leads to spending a lot of money, wasteful money. Unless you're a huge agency and can afford a salesperson and afford to wait.

'cause salespeople, it still takes them two years to get a business.  You know?  

Hunter: And I've been in the Yeah, and  like, you shouldn't hire a sales person, especially small to mid-size firms. I've been in that role and it's actually really no one's empowered then because the sales person's not represented.

But the business develop person not for representative of your firm.  Right. Your firm is you and the relationships you build.  I mean,  not that it's not your staff also, but it's about,  kind of the relationship building. It's [00:32:00] about the principles, right? It's about the kind of what their expertise is, what their vibe is, what the culture is, all that.

And so having someone else do that for you that person's never gonna be empowered enough to build the right, connections, the right relationships. And that's not gonna last it's your business. You need to build that from the ground up. You need to be responsible or plant whatever, like sewing the watering the ground, right?

You can't let other people water the ground, water the grass, whatever. I know use Chatt PT for that a lot. I'm like, there's some cliche that involves grass and a fence, 

Emily: but a lot of our clients, they think that a salesperson, even though that they hire the best salesperson. And we've seen people hire really great salespeople, but they want immediate wins.

So they are set up for disaster because they just want them to win. And winning takes years sometimes. And the people who hire these people don't have the patience to wait two years for them to win new business. 

Radim:  Um,  I'm gonna take you back to another quote by Dam Marel. Actually, he wrote amazing book called Buy Back Your Time because [00:33:00] I'm gonna loop it in a strange way and come back to it but he wrote a book.

Buy Back your time about the fact that you wanna do things that light you up. And what happens with design studios or creative studios and I've, lived that firsthand that I thought that to grow my studio, I needed more people like me to do the work so I can,  you know,  I can do the business development, whereas what I should have done, I should have done a completely different, I should got an assistant first.

You, I should have got someone that actually I can do the work that I really want to do and have somebody actually else to deal with them. Admin stuff. They're the things that I've  sort of  ended up doing as a principle of my own studio. Because no one will sell your creativity like yourself. Like you can't convince a salesperson to convince your creativity because Hunter, you mentioned like like  go to  you know  places and talk about your expertise because when you talk about your expertise, you are most excited person in the room.

It's  like,  this is what I do, this is what I live and breathe. This is what I want to do. And  kind of  like might look a fool to some people be like, are you really talking about kerning at this wedding?  Like,  absolutely.  But you know, it's that thing like if you really [00:34:00] believe in this, you talk about it, and you don't have to remember everything.

You're not lying. Whereas if you got a salesperson, you're like, uh, right.  Okay. So yeah, what do we do? And like if it doesn't feel genuine, because it makes me think about Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs was the salesperson, but also he was the mastermind of everything. Like he didn't, like, there were other people on the stage show sort of demos and things, but he was the face of the company.

he was the leader. And some way, like, it, it's so important, especially now, to elevate these founders and elevate these principles and elevate these people who actually did the source of the creativity leaders because actually they will convince, um, the others that what they lead is led from the right place.

Hunter: Yeah, we agree with that. I I mean,  it's truly the case and it also should be like, you think about it logically,  you know,  if a business is growing and it's your business, you need to be leading that. Whether that's with the relationships, whether that's with,  you know,  deciding who's on your team with growing.

There's just, you need to be the leader. If you don't want to, that's okay.  You know,  maybe you should take a step back. And [00:35:00] I think a lot of our clients, I thinking about this earlier, like they start businesses, they wanna create a better culture. They come from a toxic agency environment, they wanna create a better culture.

And I get that, that's great. But you also need to have, I think there's another component of that where you wanna build a business that provides a service-based business that provides some service to clients that has an impact.  you know, that you're an expert in something. And if you wanna,  you know,  change culture, maybe you should do that from within.

And that's  kind of,  otherwise things are not gonna change if we just start opening new businesses with better,  you know,  cultures. We need to  kind of  like really think about things more strategically. 

Radim: When you mentioned when people hire salespeople, it reminded me quite a few stories that I've heard when.

Like it was time to expand. Let's get a salesperson. The salesperson gets a bit of a bumper of a salary because they're the salesperson, right? And there's the, there's the, uh, commissions and stuff. And then the story follows, like, oh, it works. how's your salesperson doing?

Oh, actually, we had to let them go. It didn't work out. That's pretty much 99% times.  Like,  that's what happens.  Like,  it didn't click, because as we just said, like obviously there's other ways to structure that you [00:36:00] can go out there and, sell and actually not even sell, just present and actually to show  uh, what you can do.

Hunter: Yeah. It  like,  I don't know, having someone else go play,  you know,  football, soccer, for you to make friends and then bringing those friends to you and be like, here's someone I think you're gonna get along with.  Like,  it just doesn't really make sense, right? When you think about it, you really need to be the one doing that yourself because there's so many other factors that are involved.

Emily: The other thing, when you talk about your work, yes, you're passionate. So you talked about all those things. why we should sell it. But the other thing is,  you know,  all the anecdotes,  you know,  all the little fun, stories behind those projects. And that's what sells is like the story and the passion behind it.

So the salesperson didn't do the work, they weren't part of those relationships to the clients. So they give a spiel and it sounds like a spiel. It sounds like a canned thing. Whereas if you talk about the work, you're talking from authenticity and you could  kind of  pivot and talk about a fun story that happened and relate it to how it works with this particular client.

 Like,  oh, we just solved that problem for this client through this way.  You know,  we had many stakeholders in this issue and this is how we handled it.  You know?  So I think those stories and those anecdotes [00:37:00] really resonate with clients as well, like really infusing personality into how you talk about the work, which is why we don't call it selling, because when you sell, you're talking from  like  a very canned approach.

Radim: So let me ask you a question. Let's talk about the times when it didn't go so well. When we get people who are stubborn and quite a lot of designers and creatives can be quite stubborn, mainly for the sense of identity.  You know,  the ego is sense of identity. Like obviously I'm doing this, you know,  so do you have any horror stories?

 I mean, of course it's easy to walk away from a bad client. I mean, we all do that But did you have someone particularly tricky to turn around and, say, you know what, you really need to be a business person first and a designer second. 

Emily: Honestly, I would say no. I mean we do a really good embedding, we teach on to clients this as well, how to vet the best clients, right?

So we look for those red. Hunter and I vibe check all the time and have a strategic way of looking at our clients. What are we looking at? Are they,  you know,  assholes? Are they primadonnas? Are they talk a lot,  you know,  and we adjust our process for them,  you know,  so we really look at what those red flags are and decide if they're right for us and if they are right for us, we talk to them about this, right?

So if they're stubborn, we  kind of  call them out on it a little [00:38:00] bit. 

Hunter: Yeah. I think one thing we always ask our clients, and We also recommend our clients like, are you ready for change? We're not saying that you need to change tomorrow. We're not saying we're gonna tell you exactly this is what you need to be, but we need you to be ready to change.

we need you to be ready to experiment and try things and potentially fail, but also potentially succeed. Like we always talk to our clients about that before they and our clients, right? When we're also in that relationship building stage of like, listen, if you wanna work with us, if you're not willing to change, it's not worth your money.

don't work with us. Then  like, and I think also we're the kind of, I'm sure many consultants would be like, why would I do that?  Like,  you just like a lot of consultants, right?  like, kind of,  I think there's  like  some like jokes around consultants, around like, like,  no,  you know,  people just pay consultants to 'em.

Their advice. They're not gonna  like  take, but it's really important for us that our clients do take our advice and that they see results. And so we always talk to our clients. we're committed to also your business and seeing results. We wanna hear the failures along with the success. We wanna hear what's working, we wanna hear what's not working.

We wanna be with you to help. Fix those things that maybe aren't working as well or to build off the things that are succeeding. And I think our clients therefore trust us and maybe even the ones that are more [00:39:00] stubborn or resistant, are open to changing. 'cause they know that we're also open to hearing feedback and also working with them and working with who they are, whether they're introverts, like  kind of  circling back, right?

We're not one size fits all consulting and we hope that our clients, when we  kind of  are in that vetting stage and we're talking about our process and our approach, we talk about that and like how we're gonna push them and we want them to push us and we wanna this to be a collaboration,  um, I think that's super important to us  like, I mean we've had some egos. I think one of the hardest thing is when there's a lot of egos in the room. I think that's  Um, kind of  the trickiest thing, but we always find ways to navigate or we call people out.

On their shit, to be honest. 

Emily: and they call us out on our shit too. 'cause I'm actually, I will be honest, I'm one of those people who has a big ego, I'm not gonna lie.  Right.  And so sometimes my clients have to call me outta my shit too. And that's cool. I like that.  You know,  hunter calls me outta my shit all the time.

Hunter: Yeah. We're all human 

Radim: and we get that for our clients too. The current record is 117 facts in one hour.  So,  but you're not Australian surfers, so I think you're safe. [00:40:00] But, um, I had to laugh when you said, when you ask your clients, are you ready to change? And that's a question and answer. I think that's hard bullshit. That's at first.  Like,  are you ready to change?

Yes. But what does the change entail? Again, tell me, because I'm comfortable now, I know I want change, but do I really wanna work for my change?  You know, like, that's the question. So is there pushbacks? how do you convince them and how do you actually tell them what the change entails?

Hunter: I think they'll say, are you ready for change? And are you ready to actually take action and dedicate time to this? Like we always tell our clients, depending on the engagement, we  kind of  be like, just so you know, this is gonna take like x amount of hours per week and then we're gonna add this other stuff to your plate.

And we're very honest about that, this working with us is like work, right? You  kind of  have the treat it like a climb project. So not only do we ask that they're open for change and ready for change, I think we also make sure they have the space and the time to take action along with that, um, and to work with us.

Emily: I think that once we say that, we don't get much pushback on that to be really honest.  Um,  'cause we also combine it with  like,  do you put time into it? But we also talk about how much do you, are you willing to take risks, right? Because some [00:41:00] of this stuff is experimental,  like we know what we are doing, right?

we provide best practices that work, but every once in a while there's things that we have to take a risk on.  Right. if our clients push back and honestly they don't that much push back on us. 'cause I think we do such a good job of building that relationship and trust already.

 Um,  and we ask smart questions so that they really trust us already. And so when we ask about change, they're already on board, I think. And also I think the other thing is because we're experts, right? We speak a lot. We've written books, we have proven our expertise.

We work with pretty well-known clients and successful firms or firms that look successful on the outside, which for the most part, they are.  Uh,  I think that gives us credibility also. So  you know,  they wanna get to the next level. And they've seen how we've helped other clients. So I think we've just, again, that goes back to building the love if they see that what you're done.

this is the thing about capturing metrics also like designers. You do fabulous work. Creatives do fabulous work. But do you ever see metrics? Do you ever see success stories? No. It's always about we chose this font because of X, Y, z, we chose this color palette. Or  you know, you know,  but it's never [00:42:00] about  you know,  we move the needle by X, Y, z,  you know,  we increased, uh, brand awareness by 30%, or we,  you know,  increase attendance at this event by 20%, or even like a 4% increase in profit or something like that, right?

So I think we do the same thing. We prove our expertise through the stories and through our clients and designers should be doing the same thing, really telling more resonant stories, like stories that really resonate with clients. We just tell stories that resonate with design. Other designers, we're not telling stories.

We're not telling other clients how we've helped our clients move the needle, how we've really impacted their business.  

Radim: I mean, uh, So,  when you arrive at your clients and you slam a copy of your book, which is titled Brutally Honest, no Bullshit Business Strategies To Evolve Your Creative Business,  I mean,  it's a statement pretty much like, this is how your clients should be talking to their clients.

Like what do you stand for? And Yeah,  I mean.  Obviously what you've created with the book it's a business development tool.  Like, I mean, sort of, it speaks for you in a room when you're not there. Like it gives people an idea of what you do. This is sometimes, like with the book where people  sort of  feel like, oh, I [00:43:00] would like to have a book about myself and with my work and that kind of stuff.

 Like, you know, well,  in a British library there's 13.1 million books. Like, how do you create a book for your people that speak to what thing that you wanna do and  kind of  get that message across? So with the book, uh, which is now out of print, uh, any plans to reprint. 

Emily: It's still available as an ebook. I would like to say that, um, it's something we're discussing.

Let's put it this way.  Uh,  we are trying to figure out what's next for our business and, uh, we're trying to figure if that's a book,  you know,  we like community building, so it might be something that an event or an industry something, but it will be something. I personally love the writing, the book.

it's a lot of work and so we just have to figure that out. I 

Radim: mean, as someone who's writing currently seventh book,  I mean, the consumption of books are changing, but I think it's still necessary to have a physical copy.  I mean,  I know as a someone who reads a lot of books, but, and as a someone who've got two young children, I read mainly books when I'm stuck in a dishwasher,  you know,  when I'm doing a school run, I can't physically read a copy.

But is that tactile  sort of  aspect [00:44:00] of having something where you can give it to someone and say, it's page 27, can you please reread it because it, this information overloaded? Because right now it's a lot to take in. 

Emily: The reason why our book was so successful I think was because it was designed for designers.

It has nine colors, it has varnish,  you know, it has all the bells and whistles designed  like,  so it made them read it, it had information, graphics.  Right.  So that kind of book, it wasn't just a black and white book.  Right. it was a lot of work to develop and. Because of that, it was very successful in ways.

Hunter:  I mean,  I think also why we wrote our book is to be a resource, right? So our book, while we still reference it for our clients, like, Hey, read this chapter before we talk. It is meant to be  sort of  like more for people that are just starting out or just a couple years in. So it's  kind of  a way for us to give back to the community and provide to the community with when they're not  kind of  at the start, at the point where they need or should have our services because they don't have the time or they don't need to be making these huge changes that we're recommending for other clients, right?

Really they just need to be taking action, building the relationships.  Um,  so I think for us, what's important about the book and [00:45:00] when we look in the future for what we wanna do for our business. Being there for the industry, providing resources, um, that work for our client base. And I think speaking to what my mom was saying about,  you know,  the book was designed for our audience, right?

That's again, how we position ourselves as experts, as our clients should be doing, right? We were thinking about who our audience is, what they want, what their needs are, what's gonna speak to them. And we developed something based on that, which is what also we want our clients to be doing as experts. 

Emily: And the other thing is that book, yes, it's a new business tool, but it didn't bring in business until just this year, like last year and this year, like it took a few years because those people now used our practices, saw the success, and now wanna go next level, and that's when they hire us, right?

So again, it's that patience. It did turn into business, it just took a while. 

Radim: Yeah. can relate to it. I think if when you have a strategy, what you wanna get out of the book. Some books Build your authority.  I mean,  I have one book that's done incredibly for us.

The other ones, they're fine. The other ones just build our profile and just did something different. But what I want to talk [00:46:00] about before I let you go is, um, how do you, on a personal level,  I mean,  you're don't live in country anymore, I think Hunter, you are based in Columbia, you're still in America.

 Um,  do you get time away from work? Like how do you metabolize this? Because I can see you like, I don't think there's a quiet moment about, I'm not talking about work  

Hunter: well,  there is we deliberately make sure there's time. So I think when I officially decided to join the business, I've been involved in the business for years and years and years, when I officially decided to join what May 20, 23, 2 years ago now.

 Um.  I made it pretty clear that,  you know,  and I think, she was in agreement that our personal was just as important as a professional relationship and that we need to make sure that we balanced and prioritize and thought about both very deliberately. So whether we're virtual or in person, we make sure there's thoughtful time for each, and we try to keep, um, separation between church and stay here.

 So, uh,  like the kind of the quickest example is when I'm back in Philly visiting, which I will be in a couple weeks, for me, when we walk the dog midday. Even though we just [00:47:00] finished a client call usually and we're gonna jump on a client call in an hour and a half For me, I always say, we're not talking business.

We're not allowed to mention a client name. This is our time to talk about personal love or just be in walk and enjoy the walk and be in each other's company and not talk about business. And while she didn't love that initially, I think she's grown to appreciate it.  Um,  'cause it allows us the balance, I think.

So we just make sure, I think we make deliberate time for both sides of the relationship. And we're very different people, um, in terms of how we treat work and neither right or wrong. So I think it's just we try to find the balance 

Emily: And then her living in Columbia isn't really an issue because most of our clients work virtually, but she comes in at least once a quarter to, we're going to Cleveland next week to work with a client.

So we always will travel to our clients as needed.  Um,  and I always go to Columbias at least once a year, I'm told to. So she not only comes to America, but I go to Columbia too.  So, um, we make very intentional efforts to figure out how this can work, how our personal can work,  you know, I have no boundaries between the two and Hunter has very strong boundaries about it. So has [00:48:00] been a tension point. One that's been really good for us, um, in terms of  like  making me a healthier human being in terms of work life balance. 'cause I pretty much love what I do and I can work 24 hours, uh, and did work 24 hours.

 You know,  I have client calls on the weekends and my daughter and my business partner, she absolutely does not talk to clients on the weekends. 

Radim:  I mean,  hunter, well done.  I mean, that's remarkable. Like we are not talking about clients.  I mean, remarkable and healthy.  I mean, I mean,  yeah, to be able to separate it and to actually put systems in place, and actually I kind of stick with it.

I think it's, incredible. And,  Well, I mean, Just before I let you go now, um, sort of,  where do you go outside your work in terms of your headspace inspiration, looking for new knowledge, cross pollination of ideas, cognitive diversity? Like how do you bring just a fresh angle onto what you do?

Hunter: I actually feel  like, I mean,  maybe we have different approach. I think like a lot, I feel like I learned a lot through my like friends and people that I know in my life that are working also in different industries.  like, and I do this personally too, like something I [00:49:00] really love that all my friends and people I surround myself with, they're all very different.

And I think from that you learn so much. And I think the same thing goes with business. Like I think  kind of  bringing in all different vantage points and different points of views  you know,  not just living in a certain bubble, um, is really helpful. So for me, I think that's where I get some like inspiration, both personally and professionally.

Emily: I think you're also recharged 

Hunter: by 

Emily: nature. 

Hunter:  Well, 

Emily: yeah, no, I think that you also go hiking and need to like, 

Hunter: yeah, but I don't think about work because I'm hiking  so, so I think yes, it's my place to recharge.

Yeah. Yeah. 

Radim: I like your answer.  I mean, I mean,  when you talk about different vantage points and like that, what I call cross pollination, it's amazing to actually get information from other people, how they overcome their problems, how they do their thing.

Because we can really be in a silo and chamber in this industry.  Like, you know,  'cause we have similar problems. Therefore, you find yourself almost trapped in a negative energy because people are like, oh,  well  it doesn't work for me. And someone says It doesn't work for me too. And  like, it's a, bit of a moan fest.

Hunter: Yeah. Or you get stuck in the opposite where you're like, oh, this worked for them. Why isn't it working for me? And I think everyone's different, [00:50:00] right? Some people love to read like all these nonfiction books and it gets 'em inspired by all these different ideas and that's great. I'm not that person personally, like I'm very much like intuitive learn as you do and go and talk to people.

But I think there's so many different ways to learn and I'm sure maybe my mom will speak to  kind of  her ways of getting inspiration in that sense. 

Radim: Yeah. 

Emily: a big reader and as is Hunter, but I like reading, um, business books as well.  Um,  I'm not obsessed by them, so I'm not gonna quote every author out there.

 Um,  but I also, look at other industries. I think we can learn from other industries. So I used to love reading fast companies, so now I'm on like,  you know,  Harvard Business Review. I get their weekly,  you know,  or daily emails. Like I learn from other industries to pick up their best practices. ' so I think that's what recharges me or and we also learn from our clients.

I honestly say  like,  our clients teach us so many great things and, we though we share those with other clients, like what works for somebody if we think it's gonna work for somebody else, we'll share that as long as it's not confidential.  uh, so I think we learn in lots of different ways and plus both of us love to learn.

 I mean,  we're both very curious people and  like,  I'm [00:51:00] learning Spanish right now.  Um,  so I think we're always constantly learning in different ways.

Radim:  I mean,  thank you very much for telling me what you do, sharing that with me and actually  sort of shed more light on what you do because I think in a way it's remarkable.  Uh, you are both full of passion, full of energy. You are experts and I think your clients are lucky to have you. And, um, design industry is lucky to have you because yeah, someone needs to hold designers not accountable.

and actually improve what we do because it can easily get stuck in our ways and complain. 

Emily: And I wanna say we're also, I hate to use the word, but we're blessed also because we get to work with creatives, right? They are the best clients in the world, honestly.

And so we're really lucky to work with the kinds of people we work with. 'cause they're really lovely human beings, despite their quirks and despite their egos, they're just really, truly caring human beings and ones that care about the planet and care about the world. So that's important to us.

Radim: Thank you. 

 [00:52:00] Hey. Thank you for listening to this episode of Mindful Creative Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, or even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me. Riding mileage, editing, and audio production was massively done by Niall Mackay from Seven Million Bikes Podcast, and the theme music was written and produced by Jack James.

Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode.