Diving into creative chaos to find magic in uncertainty - PJ Richardson (Laundry)

PJ Richardson, co-founder of motion design studio Laundry, shares his journey from graffiti artist in San Francisco to running a successful creative company. This episode explores how personal struggles and anxiety have shaped his creative approach and business philosophy. 

Richardson discusses his experience growing up in Chinatown with a single mother, finding creative escape through graffiti, and eventually transforming that hustler mindset into entrepreneurship. He reveals the insecurities that still plague him despite his success and how he's learned to harness chaos as a creative force rather than fighting against it.

This episode was produced in association with Paradiso 

Key Takeaways:

• Creative anxiety and perfectionism are common even among highly successful professionals
• Embracing chaos rather than trying to control it can lead to unexpected creative breakthroughs
• Personal experiences and trauma often fuel creative drive but require addressing for long-term wellbeing
• The parallels between graffiti art and marketing reveal how creative hustle translates to business success
• Creative leadership requires learning to delegate and set boundaries rather than doing everything yourself
• Making personal experimental work can lead to unexpected commercial opportunities
• The importance of not waiting for permission to create and try new approaches
• Creating "sandboxes" for discovery rather than rigid plans can yield the most innovative results
• Industry change is constant - studios must continuously evolve or risk becoming obsolete
• Working with people you enjoy collaborating with should be a priority metric for taking on projects

Daring Creativity. Podcast with Radim Malinic

daringcreativity.com |  desk@daringcreativity.com

Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc
Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook
Book bundles  https://novemberuniverse.co.uk

Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/  (Use: PODCAST for 15% off)
November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)

Transcript

PJ Richardson: [00:00:00] you talk about it at the beginning of your book very similarly of just diving right in and just seeing what happens. And sometimes it's like, like, oh, wait a minute. Maybe I should have thought that one through a little bit more. but I share that mindset now of like, hey, like I'm not afraid to switch styles or try something new or go into some technical thing.

Now when you go into something really uncertain and new, I think as creatives we all need that 'cause we get bored very easily. But when you do go into something new and kind of messy and unknown, it definitely at the same time bubbles up insecurities and uncertainties too from wherever else. But it's, kind of our job To try new shit. 

Radim: Welcome to Mindful Creative Podcast, a show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. My name is Radnich and Creativity changed my life, but it also [00:01:00] nearly killed me in this season. Inspired by my book of the same title, I'm talking to some of the most celebrated figures in a creative industry.

In our candid conversations, my guests share their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles. How they learn to grow as creatives a creative career in the 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career.

So Thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life.

You ready?

Radim: My guest today is a celebrated figure in the world of creativity, motion design, and live action. He's a creative director and co-founder of, or he's the creative director and co-founder of Laundry, a design studio based in la, San Francisco, and New York. They work with clients like they work with the clients like of Nike, apple, and Tyler, the creator, Lincoln Park, and many, [00:02:00] many others.

Laundry often merges bold design, animation and pop culture inspired storytelling to create culturally driven visuals that move and push boundaries, visuals that move people and push boundaries. In this very honest conversation. We talk about personal struggles and anxiety, but it can, in this very honest conversation, we talk about personal struggles and anxiety, but those can shape creative approaches and business philosophy.

We talk about the fact that insecurities just sometimes don't go away, but we can learn how to use them in creative chaos that creates magic. It's my pleasure to introduce BJ Richardson.

 Bj, how you doing? Good. How's everything? Yeah, I'm super excited to have you on a show.  uh, it's a show that I need to say is kind of created in association with Paradiso, because Paradiso, even though you and I have met well but we have passed each other at various conferences around the world.

It was the first time we actually properly got to chat and, you know, hang out and have actually time to speak. So I promised to Hector that this episode will be in association with Paradiso because what he created has been absolutely remarkable. 

PJ Richardson: [00:03:00] I agree. I agree. that was wild. that was everything I thought it would be and more.

It was the uncertainty of it. The meaning of like-minded minds. Just the, the setting, it was small, it was intimate, it was bubbling with creativity and chaos and, I don't know, it was really nice. 

Radim: I have to say that after having spoken at so many different of these events, it's been nothing like I've ever experienced before.

It was in a way, un parallel to all the experiences because if there was one takeaway for me from Ade, so was that people, regardless of their statue, of their profile, of their achievements and accolades, everyone's human. Everyone's so human and everyone's is a little bit insecure. Everyone's got their little problems.

Everyone's got something going on, you know, and I think it was a great leveler. I think it was a great way to see, you know, how we are all equal in this game because it's easy to put people on a pedestal, right? 

PJ Richardson: That's exactly what my encounter with it too. I think a lot of things were very much by design, the whole like, you know, what's the format?

What isn't the [00:04:00] format? No one really knew what they were doing or how to do it. Even some of the best speakers in the world, the most trained and season were kind of like, what is this? And then on the other side of it too, it was just a different, because the, audience was so much smaller.

Also, you're not talking to students or young professionals, like you're usually are, you're giving a talk to your peers. And so there's a big part of it that's like, like, what can I possibly tell Stefan Sagmeister that he doesn't already know? Like, you know what I mean? so, you know, or anybody for that matter.

but then that's exactly what happened. at least in my similar experience is you broke down and was like, wait, none of that matters. It's just about having regular conversations altogether and just kind of vibing. 

Radim: Well, I have to say that. Turns out there's quite a lot that Stefan so master doesn't know after having a few conversations.

But PJ we haven't properly introduced you yet. So, um, for those who have may have never heard of, Laundry or PJ Richardson, how would you introduce yourself? Uh, 

PJ Richardson: my name's PJ Richardson. I'm a, uh, let's say artist designer, uh, creative director and director  uh, at Laundry, which I'm also a co-founder of.

And we are a motion design and production studio in La, San Francisco, New [00:05:00] York. but mainly we're just a group of like-minded creators you know, teams all over the world. kind of, uh, we just happen to have these particular cities,  um, and we were mostly just in advertising, film, digital media, um, and just making motion graphics and animation and live action.

Come to life and hopefully delight people and help brands kind of, uh, achieve their goals and thrive along the way if we're doing our work the right way. 

Radim: It's amazing way that you guys do, but I've got habits on the show to parachute you back to where it all started. I've been flipping through your book, uh, letter Rip that you produced with Hector.

 I mean, I'm trying to find the right adjectives because it's so colorful. It makes me happy. It's exactly up my street. And I got to learn a lot about you from this, from your talk from off last year because your journey is somewhat similar to. Quite a few people, I would say from the decade where we grew up, because it was not always given that you would be co-founder of a motion studio.

Like you didn't even have an idea that's a motion studio. My kids now have an idea about branding studios because they see me doing it. Whereas you grew up in a family that couldn't be far more removed from creativity or, you know, entrepreneurialism. So where did you grow up?  well, what was the first encounter with creativity and how did you all grow?

PJ Richardson: Yeah, good question. I grew up in, uh, Chinatown in downtown San [00:06:00] Francisco. Uh, most of my like childhood was like eighties, late nineties  um, not that I was stable of households to live in. My mom's single mom divorced and had, um, issues of her own.

 um, and so I found my way as an outlet into creativity, mostly through graffiti art.  uh, and that I think brought me into entrepreneurialism and sort of an unusual way because you have to be pretty entrepreneurial to be a graffiti artist in any successful capacity or not. Um, but it involves a lot of hustle, um, a lot of risk taking.

It's basically marketing at its core. I always talk about that. Like graffiti is literally marketing. Um, and so it taught me a lot of things. and from there,  uh, I went to art school and quickly realized that neither graffiti or my, uh, misplaced. Perception of how good I am at art and painting. Uh, kind of took me into the graphic design world and advertising ultimately motion design in the last year at the uni.

Radim: I mean, I never connected those two as graffiti and marketing. 

I mean, 

PJ Richardson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy. It's the parallels, it's wild. I think the only other [00:07:00] thing, and you talk about this in, one of your books, is the only similar, not only, but one of the similar paths of surfing.

It's a lot like navigating creativity, but for the graffiti thing, it's, you know. Just like marketing or advertising, you can do one of two ways. You can just go write your name on a wall frequently as possible with no craft creativity or thought. And the more you do it, the more people will see.

We know countless brands that do that. Or alternatively, you can bring some artistic, unusual, very, very creatively crafted approach to something, you know, more like a big graffiti mural. There's people that also do that. And then there is another side of it, which is kind of more like the Banksy side of it, where you can go for stunts and clever takes and unexpected fresh angles into getting your name out of the graffiti arts as well.

So, um, and then the behaviors are very similar. Like you, need to have a brand somewhat as a graffiti artist to be known for something. You need to have the hustle of, Getting a lot of nos on this case. Walls you probably shouldn't write on. Um, and still figure out how to do it in spite of it, you know, so it just kind of, it kind of goes down the line.[00:08:00] 

Radim: This is what I wanna ask you because you just said write on the walls that you potentially shouldn't write on. And I remember as a fresh-faced teenager tries to do some tagging because you know, you grew up in this small town and you're like, what's happening? And you do your tagging and you basically shake yourself because you're like, I should be really doing this.

what was it like for you, in terms of a confidence and, doing this? did you run with some kids doing this or were you presume more sort of solitary experience? Like how did you get into it and obviously, how did you overcome that feeling of like, I shouldn't be writing on this wall, but I'm gonna hella give it a short?

PJ Richardson: I never felt that good about it because I have a very guilty conscience in general, just as sort of a fundamental in my DNA. So  um, I didn't love it. The graffiti tagging part of it all that much. I really kind of fell in love with, it when it got more into like the mural painting and that side of it.

And that's when I felt like I sort of found my own on it a little bit. Um, the, thing about that and to the first part of your question is I would go do graffiti with other kids my age or older or younger. And that was kind of cool. But then I really sort of fell into my own when I, kind of went sort of more on my own and just sort of got lost in my own world of creativity.

And that's when a lot of really interesting things would [00:09:00] happen visually. Um, I feel like it's a behavior that's kind of continued on a little bit. 

Radim: I think with the world of graffiti, especially at that decade, you kind of felt like you gave yourself permission to be creative.

we didn't really wait for something like, for someone to say, Hey, by the way, now you're ready. Or Now we've got enough followers. Let's say enough people look at your walls. Therefore you can create another one. Like, we didn't give a shit about any of this. Right. Which, like, like, it was the movement.

You saw other people doing it, it made you feel something and you're like, okay, I'm gonna follow. Right. Right. 

PJ Richardson: Well, that's it. I mean, you know, at the time at least my Pinterest was just stuff in the streets in and around San Francisco. Like, you'd go and be like, oh, that new thing popped up, or, oh, that unusual thing.

That person paired, you know, this spray paint with this type of thinking or whatever. So it just became this treasure trove of just being out and getting inspired by things. And I think one of the things you just said is something that I talk about a lot now, and I like to think that I apply it.

Enough at least, which is not waiting for permission. The productivity side of things. that is the make it or break it, I think in our creative industry and design motion branding, I think that we're just [00:10:00] held back by our own thinking that we need to wait for someone to give us permission to do something or hire us to do something.

Radim: Um, when I look at your book, and I sort of see the parallel, like we talk about graffiti. I knew you did graffiti, but now I sort of see some of your compositions. I really reminds me of old school graffiti, like the layups and like the movements and the shapes. It's funny how these things sort of come up at the right time.

But with your absolutely incredible prolific career and how much you produce and how much you've created already, um, would you say in some way was. Sort of escapism from reality? Was it like come in and sort of dealing with traumas and stuff? 

PJ Richardson: Uh, 2000%. So like, the way that I would navigate tough times at home would be to go out to graffiti or get lost in my graffiti yard at home and sketchbooks and all that stuff.

And kind of it's an annoying, mental health thing because  uh, the anxiety that dynamic created is something that I held onto me. So like, I've dealt with anxiety pretty much my entire life, even now still.

And so I'll use my work to escape and bury myself in doing it to escape my own [00:11:00] anxiety, social pressures, you know, any number of different things. Um, in my case it's a double-edged sword because it, doesn't necessarily make things better, but It also gives you the payoff of like, the harder you kinda work, the more you go in on your creative career, usually you get some pretty beneficial, especially financial results.

So like, you know, um, it definitely carries over, I think. Uh,  

Radim: I mean, I read in your book story about your friend, in fact two friends and one of them sadly got shot. In fact, both of them got shot, right? Uh, one in the cinema, one in the drive-by shooting. And like, that is a lot to deal for a young mind to understand.

I mean, there was a grief you know, in my life when I was young and I couldn't really not understand it. Um, but what was the grief and the factor of the grief and potentially the lack of. Explanation and understanding of how to deal with grief at that younger age, obviously. 'cause you said you were escaping to do graffiti, obviously, you were finding yourself for your, um, breakpoint, um, you know, finding graphic design and doing more work is sort of more commercially minded and more sort of versatile.

But did you ever actively know that you hide in a way? Or was it sort of just this blanket that made you run away 

PJ Richardson: think I was just reacting to my [00:12:00] feelings of lack of control and pain and like, I left to go to university actually out on the East coast and I didn't really process any of the grief.

In fact, I kind of just turned to alcohol, drugs, being young in college with partying and  um, so I don't think I dealt with it. Very well or at all. I don't think you're equipped to, I guess, um, at least my setting wasn't like, I was already pretty isolated alone with my childhood, at least outside of home, so I just didn't even know kind of how to make sense of that.

So, so yeah,  uh, kind of you know, I think we both have seen is, now I know how to be with things a little bit better tools, I think to, kind of deal with stuff like that. But I don't know what was your experience like and how you responded to 

Radim: Oh, panic attacks for most of my teenage years.

Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, like there was an experience when someone died suddenly on a iceo key ring, uh, during a game. Um, and yeah, it, it was terrible. I think for years and years. I was just like, oh, is my, number's gonna be up? Because no one explains to you in the middle of.

Was it eighties? maybe like early nineties. Like, why did someone die? Ah, whatever. Carry on. You know? And I was just like having severe panic attacks and, you know, it took me another 20 years to actually even find out that I was having panic [00:13:00] attacks because I wasn't really sure what was happening.

Because you go into traditional gps and they're like, uh, yes, stomach crumbs. like, you know, Right? It just wasn't there. And, I followed very much the path that no, you followed, um, I worked myself to the ground. I was working 17 hours a day, you know, creating work for every client in every corner of the world.

Similarly, you know, like I didn't know what I was running away from. Until when I was 40, I started doing a lot of therapy and unpacking, and I'm still peeling off the layers of, you know, the misspend childhoods and, you know, the broken families and that kind of You kinda realize, oh, that's why I needed to do all of this staff, you know, because some of these tools were not available back then.

You know, like, I mean, it's not even norm now in many places. You know, like we, talk about mental health because we try to get this to be more known and more available to people and just how do you stop people from almost wrecking themselves again because they have a properly processed the first experience, therefore they're doing something on the back of it as a sort of this echo with that experience.

And yeah, I think not only our [00:14:00] industry where people go and hide away from their problems. like, you know, you got successful CEOs who don't have to work ever again in their lives, but they still go to work because that immediate sort of, um, gratification is there, you know, like you need it, you know, someone needs you.

Like, it's easier just to not deal with things because you are in a safe space. And I think that's quite. An easy hideaway space for us just to go and create a lot more stuff. And then you create stuff and then you feel like, I need to look for perfection. 'cause you've got that anxiety because you want this to be perfect.

Whereas people looking at your stuff be like, uh, whatever, you know, next. especially now in the, the snackable society we live in, when everything is so fast paced and sort of short lived, you might be agonizing by something and it's just like, oh, that's just my way of not processing the shame and vulnerability by trying to process all of this stuff.

So you nodding in your head, I think you've got a lot to say to it. 

PJ Richardson: Yeah, I mean that's what I see. Experience and, you know, I think with a lot of our traumas and look. it's not a competition. Everybody has traumas of varying kinds, and they're all equally real to that person.

I think ignoring 'em doesn't make them [00:15:00] go away. Like, and like you said, I think like both of us are illustrating, neither one of us even have the capacity or the tool to even understand what they were or the people around us to help us get there. Right. so, and then you fall into work, like you're saying, you fall into work and it becomes an escapism and then the, rewards of that escapism skyrocket.

And you're like, well, this is fucking awesome and makes me feel alive and it's hell and it's great. And that dance happens back and forth 52 times over one project and then we pull it off and hooray, let's start over again. You know, and so it becomes a very addicting escape side quest, whatever you wanna call it.

So  um, yeah, it's a circle of life of very unique 

Radim: shapes. it's a definitely a very messy circle of life. Um, but I think in a way of justifying the creative process, we tell ourselves that basically based on our messy experiences, that the process should be clean and pristine and enjoyable.

And it should be something that we are longing for as a sort of offset. But it's only recently that came to my mind. It was like, if you allow yourself to think that it has to be as messy as possible, it will never be perfect. Like [00:16:00] no clients will ever be perfect. No projects will ever be perfect because when you see those shooting matches, like back on the day on Facebook or Twitter or now sort of Instagram, like, you know, it was, you know, easy to get this client not across the line, but it was hard to do for this client.

And I'm like. How can we even expect, you know, things to go well? Because think about even from personal relationships, like you might have five really good friends and most of the people are not in that category. So in our lives, you might have like five really good clients and the rest is like, yeah, it was okay.

You know, we know each other, we do stuff. But most people will never be part of your sort of circle of, you know, creativity or, you know, your expression. So I'm thinking about it like, why do we come to this and then realize more because we haven't done with our stuff, have we? 

PJ Richardson: I'm laughing for a few different reasons, but mostly because I'm in full agreement with you on this when I have a funny thing to tell you.

When we met at Paradiso, and I've been in this phase this year at some point earlier in the year, I've spent 20 years of my career doing every learning every. Technique, doing every mental health thing, doing [00:17:00] every exercise you're supposed to do to, help reduce stress and help figure out solutions to navigate the creative industry and make it this calm saying, perfectly ordered thing.

And I do all this self-help to cope with it not being ever that. And I was like, wait a minute. I'm going through the same loop over and over and over. I'm looking at it the wrong way. I need to dive into the chaos. Like It's always chaotic. It's always messy. Instead of trying to like order it and cope with that and not having perfectly just go in, just  like, don't create chaos.

But I told myself, don't create chaos, but find the most chaotic situations and just commit myself emotionally all in on it. And it's funny when you do things like that because, uh, it invites other moments like it and Paradi so was no. The accident, it was right smack in the middle of kind of a peak dive into the chaos moment.

But my anxiety level actually went down hugely by going at things head on with no expectation to try to [00:18:00] have it be perfect or perfectly sectioned or anything. And the work was really creative and far more satisfying. Like I made my team around me perfectly mad, but there's also just kind of a math on it that I figured out that I was like, Hey, we've never not pulled this off.

Like, we're always afraid we're not gonna pull it off, but like, we've never not pulled it off after thousands of projects. Like, it's gonna be fine. Like, it's just uncertain, you know? And it was like such a game changer. Like, it still feels weird sometimes, but like, I. don't know. So I'm in that era right now.

I'll keep you posted. 

Radim: Uh, I need to jump in on this one because I remember our conversation because you mentioned you worked on a music video and it was like, it was messy, it was chaos. And I realized, oh, it's only blinking Lincoln Park that you're working for. It was like, we should have talked about it.

Like, I mean, you should have told me who we're working for, because I was like, it's just a music video. And then a week later I realized it was for Lincoln Park. So tell me about the chaos. I wanna know about the chaos and about that, because I feel like who you are, what you're describe and what you do, it was just perfect match for [00:19:00] the energy of what they've got.

So tell me about a process. 

PJ Richardson: Yeah, so I'm doing a ton of different stuff with them right now, but this particular one that I was telling you about in pur, Joe Han is the DJ in Lincoln Park, one of the founding members. And he's friends with the, uh, line producer that works on my shoots a lot of the time.

And Bill, his name's Bill. He is wonderful, human and got us together and was like, Hey, they want to do a video. can you help out with some visuals? And we did and, kind of just did this volley back and forth that came up with this concept. Joe directs their videos too, and he was like, Hey, I want to do this visual thing where it's like we are locked in an office in the severance, but there's no windows, there's no doors.

It's just  like, the pain of being locked in this constricting place, it kind of parallels with society right now and just how to deal with politics and news and all this. And it was like, okay, I got that. That's perfect. He was super nice, super collaborative. Um. And so he had this thing where he was like, Hey, why don't we do it on a XR projection stage so that the rooms can animate and warp and change shapes and [00:20:00] really get super trippy.

It was like also rad idea. Let's do it now. Then Bill, our producer, kicks in and was like, well, we don't really have any money. We don't have any time and we don't have any time to figure out all the technical sort of ways that you're supposed to normally do this and unreal and all this stuff, so, okay, no problem.

Um, so we just did a bunch of animations but we didn't really know what they were gonna look like 'cause the schedule was so fast and Joe kind of he'd see one thing and then give 'em an idea to do something else and I just wasn't really clear on his vision and like all the stuff in my head of like, well we have to have it perfectly storyboarded, then it has to do this and it has to do that.

Which is how I work in advertising was kind of chaotic 'cause none of that was, happening. the way that we were used to. And so it was the night before the shoot, and Joe and I are at the stage testing visuals. We don't really have a look. We don't really have a story. We have a kind of a story. Long story short, I'm sitting in there at midnight with him editing all these different animation tests together to figure out what this is gonna be.

And it hit me. This is exactly what it [00:21:00] should be. it isn't stressful. This supposed to be chaotic. It's supposed to be uncertain. We're not creating a solution. We're creating sandboxes for happy accidents and unknown discoveries to happen. And he didn't say it, but I kind of figured out that that was what this was.

And so it was like, okay, let's just build the playgrounds. Let's just build these loops. Let's build these vibes on the shoot. We'll shoot around it, we'll find it, we'll add diopters, we'll add lighting effects. And that's exactly what happened. And that's when it just hit me to just stop trying to control everything and just kind of get enough in there to create a space to find new things to happen.

and it really unfolded like that in a, really beautiful video became of it. Um, and don't think he did that on purpose, but I think it was just happened by circumstance of what it was. but we were all kind of good in the end with it, and so it was interesting.

Radim: I love, I love what you just said because I find that some mood, the anxieties and some of our stresses and insecurities. go and sit on the bench for a bit when there's a chaos and when you say like, working advertising, everything needs to be [00:22:00] perfectly storyboarded so we know exactly what we're doing.

Whereas creating these messy sandboxes, you know, like you focus on the task at hand, because you mentioned, you know, techniques, breathing techniques, exercises, and like how to get yourself out of anxiety. But being sort of in the moment, focusing on a task in hand, that's where the focus goes and actually lets you be there.

Because when you said I didn't wanna, and I realize not to control stuff, like just letting go of this helps you to actually realize that everything's okay. Because would you say some of your anxieties are driven by vulnerability and shame and thinking like the work's not good enough, even though. We know it's good enough.

PJ Richardson: A hundred percent. Like work's not good enough. I'm not doing enough. and my attention to detail isn't good enough. I'm not organized enough. I mean, I could go down the line. Um, and those, vulnerabilities and insecurities, come in stronger. The more overwhelmed I get or the more that I have going on.

So varying degrees of definitions of success, but let's just say success in this case is being busy. That doesn't mean [00:23:00] good. It means anxiety level goes up sometimes. You know what I mean? So it's a kind of a double-edged sword in that sense. 

Radim: I mean, this is my question. Who tells you not enough?

PJ Richardson: it's all internal.  um, and one of the biggest, I mean I've done quite a few different. Things, books, therapies, all this stuff, writing, journaling, all this stuff. And it's all great there. I can't knock a single one of 'em, but the big one for me that's worked phenomenally well recently is, uh, deep breathing meditation.

Um, I go to a meditation class for 60 to 90 minutes of like hardcore deep breathing meditation. And you get it all out, but you also go internal and clear. All of Those thought loops out it's pretty good. 

Radim:  I'm gonna say, I'm gonna do a, Debbie Millman moment because I'm gonna pull out something from my childhood.

I do love, but it's more about hopefully making a light outta the situation because you said  uh, because of your mom's ancestry, you went to French school. but you felt like you were not enough at that school that you were looking at because you were potentially not as affluent background or as stable background.

And these kind of things of our worthiness or lack of worthiness even come from our parents, come from our surroundings, come from our environments or situations like those. And would you agree [00:24:00] that some of that has been the beginning of how you feel today about your work? 

PJ Richardson: A hundred percent.

And, but you know what's a really tricky thing is you believe that and it's real. And I'm not talking anybody else down on this, that chooses either side of this decision. But it also, there's another side of it that creates kind of a chip on your shoulder to push and do extra and kind of puts a little fire under you too.

You know what I mean? would have half the motivation. have if it wasn't for that as well. 

Radim: Uh, uh, uh, yeah, I mean, you know, the first person on the show to say the such thing, you know, like, I think the uncertainty of a young person and obviously I'm also one of the examples of it, you know, you know, you bury your head in the back of a Photoshop and you strive and graft and do everything just sort of, to escape that situation.

Only to realize that when you really find yourself in the back of Photoshop, you're like, actually, I might have to deal with my real life problems because, you know, no amount of work can actually get me over this. But, um, yeah, it's an interesting one because I think you know, for you to share From the place of where you are creatively, professionally, like there's no doubt that your work is good. You know, like people look up to what you do and go, oh shit, I wish I [00:25:00] was as good as, you know, PJ and laundry and whatever they do. But knowing that's still internal battle, even after everything that you've sort of achieved is liberating for many people.

Because just like the experience of Paraic. So, you know, you see some people, they're like established, well loved by millions of followers, and they having a real life insecurity moment about a piece of work they're just shown, which is fucking brilliant. And you're like, oh really? I mean, and it's just like you wanna give them a cut, like. like.

Dude, enjoy. Like, you know, because we are still kind of running to this mythical finish line where we will feel secure, accepted, you know, like we're kind of running towards it and we feel like, wait a minute, that finish line keeps moving from me. Like I'm always a hundred, two, a hundred yards away from it.

It keeps moving in front of me because we almost don't allow ourself to actually say, you know what? I will find that piece one day. And it's liberating when you do because I mean, there is situations that I can attest to that, you know, it was in very much a similar pickle in my own personal life.

And it was becoming apparent for me. It was the thing that was like, okay, I have to accept the chaos. I'm no longer, you know, like in my own head ' cause I can't be [00:26:00] anymore. But yeah, sometimes, you know, We really need to allow ourselves just the chaos is actually a beautiful thing.

you know, and in the chaos, no one's judging you, you know, you don't have time to judge yourself. And I think that's the beautiful part of chaos and embracing it. It's just kinda like every other aspect of our life. Like we think that we will, we will accomplish all the to-do lists and we fall into this productivity trap.

You know, like you're looking to be almost finished with your to-do list, so you add more stuff on it, just so, so you don't have to actually go and be with yourself. Right. So, um,  

PJ Richardson: I mean, I have so much to say because I agree with you every which way, but there's another side to this and you touch on this in, the book that I read, but lemme set it up this way because of the private school thing was interesting in that it, I felt out of place and small, but on the other hand.

I had a very like Buddhist experience without a being in the moment, mainly just 'cause I was a kid. I just wanted to have fun and, you know, hook up with girls and shit and be popular. But with a lot of the more affluent kids, and you see this a lot, just have a security and a freedom that creates sort of a mental space of abundance, whether it's work or creativity or life.

and I also learned from [00:27:00] that too, especially creatively that working from a place of abundance can be a really creative place to be. and at the very minimum, what it gave me was this, it taught me this mechanism to try new and crazy shit often, even at the expense of it being a realistic possibility.

And, I'm not. Saying it the way that you said it in your book, but you talk about it at the beginning of your book very similarly of just diving right in and just seeing what happens. And sometimes it's like, like, oh, wait a minute. Maybe I should have thought that one through a little bit more. but I share that mindset now of like, hey, like I'm not afraid to switch styles or try something new or go into some technical thing.

Now when you go into something really uncertain and new, I think as creatives we all need that 'cause we get bored very easily. But when you do go into something new and kind of messy and unknown, it definitely at the same time bubbles up insecurities and uncertainties too from wherever else. But it's, kind of our job To try new shit. Right? And like, I'm very conscious of that at laundry, like, cause I've seen it. I cannot even tell you how many times I've seen it with [00:28:00] motion studios. There's some motion studio or design studio that's really popular overnight for one particular thing. They get called over and over and over for, I think for two or three years.

Industry changes, trends change, and then they're poof, they're done out of the water. And so, they're past. And so I think we're always like, Hey, we gotta be proactive. Do the work, explore, to keep up and ahead of this, because a little out of fear, but also it's just humans change.

They get bored of shit. You gotta give 'em something new. And so, um, it means diving into a lot of new things and getting uncomfortable quite a bit too. But, keeps us alive. 

Radim: I mean, what would you describe it? I think is a great sort of way of being ahead of the game. You know, like being kind of preempting what might be, or what could be or what should be, because mentioned the word change and we are hypocrites when it comes to change.

It's created is like we fucking love the status quo. Like when we just created that sort of that comfortable, secure pub, as you just said, studios that sort of stay still for three years or stay sort of busy, preoccupied and sort of blindsided a little bit. As creators. We don't always, especially young creators or speaking from my perspective, like I was thinking like, this [00:29:00] is good.

This is gonna work for a while, only to realize, oh, I need to think ahead. Because once upon a time I was an illustrator in advertising and I was rigidly just like yourself now, or recently, I was preempting stars. I was thinking like, what is gonna be the next thing? Like, you know, sort of when 3D wasn't as peripheral sort of as widely used as it's now, you know, because it's the line also like the ability to create amazing stuff in 3D Like it's so much more democratized.

you can have, you know, 15-year-old kids create an advertising campaign if they spend lot of time teaching themselves. But I'd be like, okay, what we creating will almost self-destruct in a way. Like, and obviously it's gonna go. Whereas when we are making it, we are so wedded to it that we don't ever wanna even know.

Get it sort of scratched in any possible way. Like you don't any imperfections only to know that in six months it's gonna be obsolete. It's gonna be useless in a way. So I think there's an expression like driving in the dark as opposed to seeing for a mile, like driving in the dark is sometimes so much more valuable because you might, you know, bump a few, you know, sides of your car but you're creating something which keeps you alive, keeps you on set, and keeps you in a bit of a chaos, [00:30:00] but you never know what might come because I think that sort of predictability of the certain styles, it's no good to anyone.

PJ Richardson:  well, I agree with you and I think the thing that's interesting is, it's just hard to do because so many of us, including myself, get stuck on our own. Uncertainties and insecurities and really fears at sucking at things, especially early on. But like, you go to a party, so you go to off, you go to anywhere, and you, look at these revered speakers and great designers and artists we love and like, it's not like any single one of them was born at zero years old, phenomenal.

A graphic design or whatever. It's the only distinction in my opinion, is they just kept making more stuff and looking around a lot more and a lot more frequently and a lot more actively than anybody else. And even in spite of their insecurities, as soon as they make something they're on to make something else and just constantly creating something and moving forward.

I think that's the only real distinction. Like, look at anybody, they're just so prolific, like the output in spite of everything is so [00:31:00] high you know, and they don't know the answers to trends to the future. None of us do. But there's only one way to find out is just make things and see where it lands and do it again.

Rinse and repeat. And it's, obviously very easy for me to say that, but it's hard for many of us to execute on. But I think it does come down to something as simple as that. That's just writing. that's 

Radim: anything's the story that you referenced from Creativity for Sale is about, you know, the surfing story where I just jumped into waves and when I was working, I knew I had to work it into my TED Talk when I was doing a Ted last year, and I kind of got to three words and there was the now, well actually four now, the now versus how like it's the moment like it is sometimes you need that short circuit, like that sort of, Error code to come up and go like, I'm doing this because it was a mistake. I was on a plane for 24 hours. In fact, I was looking forward to that trip for a month. You know, that's what I was gonna do. Even though if I was to step back from the situation, I knew that I was gonna fail at every possible way Right. And I think that's the sort of the magic or magnetic attraction to these moments. You're [00:32:00] like, I want to try this, I want do this. And someone tells you, like, you know, when you got friends you're like, like, I'm gonna do this. They're like, dude, not really. It's not gonna work. And you're like, I don't fucking care.

I'm doing it. I'm absolutely doing it. And they'll tell you when you failed. They're like, well, I told you. I'm like, you know what? I might have been with Bruce by all of this, but it was a great experience because you never know how that will sort of start making sense of your life or like how, not the things that we do sometimes the stupid mistakes we make, that they kind of makes us almost make a little bit sense of the meaning of life.

PJ Richardson: I know we all have to use our brains and, obviously justify things and just not justify things, but like, so much of it is just, give it a shot and try again. See what happens. Like you know, it's so hard to get ourselves outside of our own heads, but like, no one's good at something the first try.

Like, why would you be, literally, there's nothing scientifically that says you should be great at something. The very first try, you go, but who cares? Try it anyways. Like, and then to keep trying. If, you like it enough, like, I don't know, the surfing metaphor too is just so strong for what we do because like, you know, so much of it is just practice and, so much of it is adjusting for the weather, the wave size, the [00:33:00] location, you know, and then there's a part of it that's like, You're balancing, you're surfing, you're turning left, you're turning right? But in the best cases, you're doing it with a little bit of style, you know what I mean? And you're not just riding the wave, you're you know, ripping, aerials and it's so right for what this is that we do.

it's funny, 

Radim: you know what's funny about that analogy? Because you only get to see the best bit of surfing, like the highlights, the wave, the barrel is the highlight. We don't really watch surfers sitting in the water for two hours waiting for something decent to show up. You know, and this is, why without creative industry, like we see the surface, you know, 

PJ Richardson: you know what the highlight is?

It's the Instagram post. You see that one snippet of someone's best day, of a thousand days of practice, shit doubt. You know, some good, some bad. it's really that.  um, but the whole, Hobby is, you know, similar to creativity. It's kind of the whole thing. I don't know. 

Radim: let's talk about laundry for a bit, because what you created is remarkable of laundry.

I mean, you you know, doing work that you should be really proud of. you know, you should tell yourself one day, you know what, we are good enough. But what kind of problems do you like to solve the most? Like, what is the day where you wake up and you're like, okay, we've got this brief, this is the project we wanna do.

Or like, this is how we've succeeded. Like what sort of problems do you like to solve the best, the most? Um, 

PJ Richardson: there's a few.  well, some of the people in the studio have varying opinions about this. I've never been won big on awards. Like I never understood the point.

Um, all they [00:34:00] do is kind of make. small amount of people feel really good, A lot of people feel really bad that didn't win. Alternatively, what's done us really well, particularly on pitching, and I think this is just the graphic design education in me, is ultimately we're making advertisements that want to help a brand thrive in some way, whether it's increase awareness or increase sales.

So with a lot of our work, we work to make sure we equal or increase the impact of whatever the goal is. Like that's the problem we solve. Like if we're making a social media ad or projection on the sphere, like we want the brand to get what it wants for having spent ton of money on this.

You know what I mean? Um, so on an advertising level, that's very much what we, Like, just, you know, you know, what gets me outta bed for problem solving a certain level? Um, there's social problems that if I'm lucky enough to find my way into help kind of solve in some ways, sometimes in very playful ways.

Um, this is a funny story and kind of a serendipitous story actually. So, my wife was text messaging me on the way home. she'll be like, hi. And I'll be like, is that high? Like, she's happy I'm going [00:35:00] home, or am I in trouble? Like, what kind of high is this? And what I realized with text messaging was that the lack of intonation behind text messaging, uh, makes it confusing sometimes to know what the vibe is behind the message.

So we took Helvetic and started to problem solve, how to add to color, scale, layout and animation. Create intonation through type animation. Um, so that when someone te message you something, you know what you're in for. Um, and so we did a couple of these to try to problem solve this sort of social digital problem, put 'em on Instagram or LinkedIn maybe.

And Google called us and said, Hey, we're doing the same thing. Do you want to help us create this? Like basically make customizable type input imagery that turns into animated gif in via Android text messaging to help solve this particular social problem. And so we worked on that for quite a while and I don't know that it caught fully, but it, did like solve like a cultural problem that we found So stuff like that's really interesting to me too. Um. so, you know, and then there's just the business side that's simply problem solving. [00:36:00] How to pull off a job as creatively as possible with the time and money and resources we have or, often don't have. I,

Radim: that's really interesting. I mean, yeah, the way you run the business now, how creative do you find yourself to be? Like, do you still sit in the middle of it all or do you find yourself, like you actually have to run more of a business and then, you know, lead your troops into the battle?

Like how involved are you with the work now? 

PJ Richardson: Both, I think, I mean, I have in, I have an incredible team at laundry from the business and admin side to the artist side. But, um, it's one of the things that I've found is that It's only because of the seat I sit in, but as a creative leader owner, I'm gonna afford it.

An audacity to make decisions and take risks creatively that some of my team don't feel like they can because of the sort of employer to employee dynamic. And then with some of our clients too. I have enough of a, backdrop of not getting risk of getting fired that I can have much more direct and real conversations with clients as well.

And so I end up being pretty [00:37:00] hands-on on that way. But then also, like I have a business partner, Tony Lou, who's, we've been business partners the whole time and we're both pretty attuned to the financial and administrative side too, because you know, you know, it's less fun in a certain way, although I kinda like it.

But we're just navigating industry slowdowns, different industry verticals, slower, faster. You know, all that kind of a stuff that we have to keep a pretty close eye on. We can't be too far removed from that. So, So, 

Radim: long

story saying we're kind of in it all.  uh, did you feel like, from your beginnings to where you are now, did you feel like you had to teach yourself about leadership?

Or did you keep the loose edges to it? Like, because the jump is quite mighty, like lots of creatives really underestimate the power of leading well because obviously you wanna create well with people to help you to do the same thing. Whereas, as you said earlier, like when you let go of the control, that's where the magic really happens.

So, yeah. How did you do with your sort of leadership training and leadership sort of thinking 

PJ Richardson: poorly, uh, or uninformed I should say?  like, I'm the like. Make every mistake humanly possible and got lucky to get this [00:38:00] far part of it. But like, I definitely was like, I am gonna be the boss so I can put my feet up on a table.

That's why I'm starting a studio. 'cause this'll be less stressful, which was the biggest misfire of all time. Um, but then also as far as a leadership, one of my weaknesses is that I'm still in that mode of, I, I'm just gonna do this myself. Like, I can just do this myself, which doesn't scale very well.

Um, I've had to work hard at this through a lot of books, a lot of reading, therapy, coaching and all this stuff. But I'm like the nice guy to, I'm wanting say no to anything. so I've had to learn how to set boundaries and how to deliver nos in a way that helps everybody, because also being nice and saying yes is blown up in my face for clients, less so, even for myself and.

Ultimately leads to a bad experience for them from, working with us. So  uh, that's a work in progress. 

Radim: Yeah. I can tell you that being nice guy is, the remnants of your past, you know, cause we try to please Yeah. 'cause you try to please, you try to be [00:39:00] accepted. You try to sort of like, oh, this whole thing.

Like, oh, I need to really do a good job for this client because they might use us again. Or we want a good report. Of course, like doing a good job, wholesomely is the right thing to do, but sometimes you're not gonna build the same house twice are you? Like obviously you do the project.

You've done the project, there's very little likelihood you're gonna do it again. But we think we are gonna build a house for everybody, let's say hypothetical house or castle or whatever for everyone every month. I'm like, no. this is the whole idea of the change. But yeah, I can relate to what you're saying because back in the day I was promising things on Sunday morning.

I'm like, Hey, of course I'm do it tomorrow. Like it's Sunday, mate. Just fucking gel. You don't need to do this. 

PJ Richardson: Something you think of this thought, right? Because there's a humongous part of creatives that say that think, okay, we just have to say yes and do what they ask us to do and do a really good job.

Right? But I think we're more like, you know, Sherpas and the Himalayas are like, we're guides to help the client get to what they need to get to. And that makes it different every single time. But it also makes it so that we're helping guide them even around themselves. ' cause like [00:40:00] they're paying us not just do what they already know how to do.

They're paying us. To help them get to where they can't get to themselves. 

Radim: It's very true. I think two weddings to the idea that a brand comes to you to relatively unknown person to, you know, work for them, but somehow there'll be requesting all of your tastes and preferences whilst they will park their brand ethos or the guidelines 'cause so many punch up happen because someone hasn't understood a brief, you know, like I think.

there's often quite a lot of stubbornness, especially at the beginning like, like, well, I'm surely here for the right reason. Therefore, surely they want to hear from me. It was like, yeah, you know what? You need really to dig down deep to understand why you're in this position, why you're doing this, and also the reason why you might need to.

And as you said, the show person in Himalayas and they're like, might sometimes ask you to go to a really, really bad place to take a really wrong shortcut, you know, to take a detour. But you're gonna take them there with grace and show them, you know what, there's also option to go the right way.

But if you insist, you know, we will go the long way and get to the place because you know what, you might never know what you might find around the, wrong corner. So is just that thing of, being just be sort content with yourself. I'm like, you know what? I don't have to be right all the time because I might be proven wrong in some way, but it is that element of like getting slightly older and more experienced in the industry that actually helps into our benefit.

Because you realize, yeah. You know, as you said, I handled, you know, leadership poorly. I mean, we do make lots of poor decisions, especially in the beginning, but we gotta make them, we gotta make those mistakes, you know? And I think that's the beauty of it. 

PJ Richardson: I mean, 

Radim: How do you make all the work on the, top of laundry? How do you make all of the creative experiments, all of that work that you've put into your book that you've created with Hector? I mean, as mind blowing a amount of work, where do you find time?

How do you think about it? what is there that's still left at the end of the day for you to create so much extra work? 

PJ Richardson: I spend about an hour sometimes, maybe a little bit more, um, on it, and then sometimes a little longer on the weekends.  uh, so it came from a couple different places, of them insecurities.

Um, one of the things that we were doing a lot more 3D work, and I never felt very confident about 3D work as an artist. And then one of the biggest challenges that I would get into when creative directing projects was being like, well, I wanted to feel this way and I needed to be more like this. But I was talking in those like.

Vague metaphorical creative director, ways that were complete bullshit, no one understood what I was saying and took a lot of time and [00:41:00] money to power through that to get what I needed. So I was like, okay, well why don't I just start making some 3D stuff just to learn the tools? and I liked it. I liked the, technology behind it.

Um, and then this other thing kept popping up where in our sales pipeline, we would get asked to do certain styles of work, um, on projects. And they're like, we wanna work with you. We love you guys. Do you have an example of a project like this? And it was something we could do in our sleep, but we didn't have the example of it.

I was like, and I got enough of those leads missed that I was like, all right, I'm taking matters into my own hand. And so I started making these little experiments that were very targeted, happy accidents. Like, oh, you have this? Oh yeah, I've been working with this experiment. Check it out and send it to them to help kind of, Up our odds on lead generation. Um, and then from there like, I just kept doing it outta habit and just started making more and more. and then it just kind of ran off from there. and I knew I still had all, and still do, have all the self doubts and insecurities about making personal work and whether it's good or not compared to this or not.

But early on I did know, I was like, Hey, I'm gonna start really fucking simple, like two [00:42:00] cubes and a couple colors. And I had a feeling it would just get more complex over time, purely out of practice. And that's kind of what happened. Like when I look back, the work I do now is much, I would say, more technically and creatively tuned in than it was, you know, six years ago when I started or Um, so, and that's kind of how that all happens. 

Radim: Do you have time to. Self reflect because would you describe it in terms of work, obviously, in terms of some personal experiments, do you ever take time and look back what you've created, how far you've gone? Do you sort of self audit or self-reflect, or have you ever done it?

Because that I'm asking you from a personal experience because, you know, we had a, very prolific time in my studio. Five years where there was a team of people, we were doing so much work that when I scaled the team down and run basically through the archives, I was like, oh my God. Not only we created some amazing stuff, there was so much that, you know, you know, but went into that pile of like experiments and I kind of related to the things.

And at that time I didn't think we were fully done. I don't think the work was good enough. sometimes, you know, we were still sort of finessing things and only when I had time to take a deep [00:43:00] breath and look back, I was like, oh my God, I have to actually email people back and say we did some fucking good stuff.

Like we just didn't have time. Because I was in a similar position, not as sort of high up as you were your own team. And I didn't have that many people to look after, but I was running the studio. I was a young parent. Like there was so much to do and I didn't have time to appreciate what we were creating, only to actually take a step away and go like, that was good.

That was really good. And we didn't really know it. So I wanna know if you are hopefully not in the same position at. 

PJ Richardson: No, it happens all the time. I mean, even making that book with Hector, the process of that was pretty funny. People ask me about this, I wrote the writing, sent him a Google Doc, and then I sent him a Dropbox link of like, I don't know, like 400 projects.

And I was like, Perfector, go your world. And he was like, I got you. And so he put the whole book together and then sent me a PDF. We had like one, revision thing, like set round and was pretty minor,  um, but in doing so, I went through a lot of those old projects and was like, um, yeah, I remember that being a lot shittier in my head.

or some I just, probably similar as what you're saying, Joe, I just [00:44:00] outright forgot about a lot of 'em. Like, I was just like, oh wow, that, yeah, I barely remember that. Um, but again, it was like kind of a lesson. It's always a nice reminder to be like, oh yeah, I did. That, and that was great, and I'm proud of myself for that.

And then there's a big part of me that's just like, keep going. And not, for any reason, not for a doubt or an accomplishment, but the, just, keep at it. 

Radim: I think you'll find yourself very thankful that that book exists, because if there was one lucky strike in my life that my creative life that I've, created was that I've started publishing promo books as soon as I went on my own as a freelancer, then I started making more books, and I've literally created a portfolio with a bit of writing as master sort of book of ideas.

And that's still out there. People still buy it. And I've still got a memory of the work that we've created because digitally I can't even get a hard drive working from, you know, 2010 and even from 2015, it is just that stuff is gone. But like having it in the physical form, I just sort of encapsulates that time of the effort and the experience because yeah, I mean.

I really enjoy sort of hearing how you actually, you know, you know, how heck to put it all together without [00:45:00] you really having that input because it's a fascinating product. It's a really fascinating book and way, its package did like, it speaks to my soul because, you know, I love those colors, I love those shapes, I love those things.

It was like, oh my God. So yeah, you will look back at this, I think, very fondly you know, 

PJ Richardson: oh, I gotta tell you something funny. 'cause it meant quite a lot to me to be at Paradiso, to give out those books and be able to sign them over and write nice messages to friends  um, but I had no idea that that was planned.

I didn't even know that the book was as big as it was. I thought with Hector, he didn't explain any of it to me. So I thought it was just gonna be some little book that they put in the gift bag when you walk into the conference. I didn't think it was gonna be. What it was and the process, it was gonna be what it was.

So it was very unexpected and meant quite a lot to me to have you and friends that I really admire, be like, Hey, just come sign my book. It was like, I, did not know that that was coming at all. and it was very, very special to me. 

Radim: I mean, what an experience like, because you didn't really know what to expect.

And again, you, pretty much, had no time to be anxious about it because you [00:46:00] walking into a situation that's just gonna happen. Right. And I knew about that book signing thing about 10 minutes before it happened. Oh, that's amazing. Because you you don't have science fret about any of it.

Like, okay, it's gonna happen. Right. 

PJ Richardson: uh, it, I dunno the whole, it was every, I mean, those conferences they're, generally speaking, it's like, you know, a honeymoon of sorts. Like, but because was just inspiring and that was just kind of the tip of the iceberg.

Radim: I mean, it was a beautiful touch to, uh, quite a few days in the Mexican sunshine to have that book and actually having that takeaway because, you know, your book is now in a few hundred hands, you know, just on a few hundred homes around the world. And yeah, it's a fantastic product. I mean, I call it a product by, you know what I mean?

Like, it's fantastic article in a way of, you know, how do I remember not only the experience, but I remember like your work, I can reference it, like seeing the colors and Yeah. I was freaking through today. I was like finding these extra nuggets that it was bought in the first place. I was like, oh my God.

and as someone who not publishes books, I know how much it means to me sharing that, you know, and like, it's that thing that you can carry around and I think it's still a link to. What made us to actually love this industry in the first place. You know, the physical aspect of creativity.

PJ Richardson: I feel like I scratched the tip of the [00:47:00] iceberg, what I'm about to say on the second part though, but something that really meant a lot to me that, I mean, like, you do this on steroids, but I think there's a humongous joy to what we do to be able to write about our experiences, especially the really hard ones, and share 'em with people as in hopes of guiding someone somewhere that makes themselves feel like they're the only one going through this.

Be like, holy shit, it's not just me. This is, oh, this is, this happens. Okay. Like, 'cause forever and ever, I thought I was the only one that had anxiety or a struggle with creativity. And then the more I kind of got into this whole conference world thing, and then ultimately, and now, you know, crossing paths with books like yours or Ben's where it's just like.

crazy how important that is for young creatives that don't think that, you know,  you know, they think that they're the only one. I don't know. it's wild. 

Radim: I think the experience, it's interesting because they're like, putting it out there might help somebody, [00:48:00] but ultimately putting it out there, it's one way of sort of self therapy to actually say, you know what, I'm leaving this.

I don't have to hide behind anything because I. Somebody once say, like, if you're lying, you have to remember stuff, you know? And if you are aching, you know, you kind of have to remember what not to tell people. Whereas if you say, okay, you know, well actually who I am, this is how I feel, this is what's been, this is potentially how I might be acting in this situation, then you might find it be inappropriate.

You know, or my, question my behavior because, you know what, if people were honest, like, look, I'm, you know, drinking because of a shitty childhood, or I'm doing this because of, you know, some abuse, then we would be a lot more welcoming to one another because it's not what it is, it's how we see it.

You know, like, I think this is our problem. So I've been reading at the Elizabeth Gilbert's book called Big Magic Now. Uh, finally I got to read it and she said, never write a book for somebody else to solve their problems. You know, don't fool yourself because you look desperate. And now with, you know, our conversation and the way you described your work, what I see in your work, like you create a work for yourself, which also happens to [00:49:00] inspire other people.

And you talk about yourself, which also happens to have an impact on other people. And I think when we are true to ourselves potentially is it potentially could be one way of actually getting rid of ourselves, of anxieties and those with worries about imperfection because you are only as good as you are ready right now, you're only as good, you know, in that sort of now versus how scenario, what is now matters and you by the rest.

PJ Richardson: Yeah. I mean, And I think the only other thing that I would throw into that, that's been kind of my north star now, There's always something more bigger, cooler, whatever that we could work on. Right? But like my measuring stick now is just doing it with people that I like working with.

Like like, like, does that exist? And if they're not cool or we don't get along or you don't feel a connection, kind of kind of know how the project's gonna go. you know, so it's like that's the only, you know, good vibes. you know, this is the California hippie coming out now.

It's just like good vibes and love always. 'cause that's even in business. 

Radim: I think that's a perfect motto  uh, to use to finish this conversation for now because yeah, good vibes and love you know, with heavy pinch of those, you can get really far in life. So, pj. Thank you so much for your time.

[00:50:00] Today's to chat to me thank 

PJ Richardson: you so much. this is awesome. 

Radim: I really enjoyed conversation, not only in parity, so I enjoyed today and this is first of many, so, um, 

PJ Richardson: I hope so. Very much, 

Radim: Hey. Thank you for listening to this episode of Mindful Creative Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions, or even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me. Riding mileage, editing, and audio production was massively done by Niall Mackay from Seven Million Bikes Podcast, and the theme music was written and produced by Jack James.

Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode.

 [00:51:00]